Episode 2
Designers and Developers Need to Understand the Basics of Accessibility
Zack Klein, iSoftStone, Software Test Engineer II
Zack talks about his work as an accessibility tester and his unique perspective as a person who is totally blind. His love of technology helps him solve issues with the accessible content he relies on. He describes the tools he prefers including his Mac, iPhone and refreshable braille display.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility
Speaker:the people behind the progress.
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske the creator
Speaker:and host of this series.
Speaker:And as an accessibility professional myself
Speaker:I find it very interesting
Speaker:as to how others who found their way
Speaker:into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now
Speaker:and hear about their journey.
Speaker:(upbeat music)
Speaker:All right, well we are back for another episode
Speaker:of this podcast about accessibility practitioners.
Speaker:And today I am pleased
Speaker:to be talking with Zack Kline.
Speaker:How are you Zack?
Speaker:- I'm doing well, thank you.
Speaker:How are you?
Speaker:- Oh, I'm doing really well
Speaker:and I've known you for a while now.
Speaker:I'm talking from my Vashon Island office
Speaker:which is near Blink Seattle headquarters.
Speaker:So where are you talking to us from?
Speaker:- Sammamish, Washington which is kinda east of Seattle, so.
Speaker:- Well it's good to have a chance to chat with you
Speaker:for the purpose of this podcast.
Speaker:And of course as I mentioned
Speaker:we've worked together at Blink
Speaker:with you assisting us
Speaker:with a number of projects as a consultant.
Speaker:And we come back to talk about that
Speaker:but what other activity are you involved with
Speaker:for work right now?
Speaker:- I'm a software test engineer.
Speaker:I work with a company called iSoftStone.
Speaker:I basically do lots and lots of testing
Speaker:for accessibility testing primarily
Speaker:for Microsoft in different,
Speaker:doing different, testing basically
Speaker:whatever they assign to us
Speaker:which can vary wildly.
Speaker:- Well yeah we could come back
Speaker:and dig into your contemporary work a little bit more
Speaker:but this is all about people
Speaker:who maybe just finding their way now
Speaker:into accessibility professionally.
Speaker:To find the journeys of others
Speaker:so maybe talk a little bit about
Speaker:your life experience with that.
Speaker:And we'll kind of move up to
Speaker:how you're working in that space now.
Speaker:- Sure, I guess I can say
Speaker:I started seriously looking at accessibility.
Speaker:I kinda fell into it by accident.
Speaker:I was kind of not sure
Speaker:what I was gonna do with myself
Speaker:and I, don't know where
Speaker:the original tip came from
Speaker:but I was invited to do some testing
Speaker:with a company called Mobility
Speaker:which is a very big accessibility vendor.
Speaker:It was kind of piecemeal sort of similar
Speaker:to the sort of work I've done with Blink.
Speaker:I just kind of started doing that one
Speaker:like back in 2015 or so.
Speaker:And then it kinda just spiraled from there.
Speaker:I've been slowly doing more accessibility work
Speaker:and educating myself.
Speaker:I took a couple certifications
Speaker:and have gotten a little more knowledgeable specifically
Speaker:around the web accessibility area.
Speaker:But, it's kinda been organic.
Speaker:There's not really been any plan per se.
Speaker:I just did it because
Speaker:as a totally blind person accessibility
Speaker:is very important to me
Speaker:because without accessible content
Speaker:nothing else is usable really so.
Speaker:- Well yeah, you're certainly one of the,
Speaker:benefits that Blink gets from
Speaker:our working relationship
Speaker:is you're able to provide that unique perspective
Speaker:that you have
Speaker:from being blind.
Speaker:And it's, you certainly you know that
Speaker:you must have informed
Speaker:a lot of your thinking
Speaker:and experience in this space
Speaker:just having to work with assistive technologies
Speaker:in your own life
Speaker:as you kinda move through school and things.
Speaker:So - Yeah.
Speaker:- What was that experience like
Speaker:and how did that kinda prepare you
Speaker:for the work that you're doing today?
Speaker:- Well, I mean I've always been a geek
Speaker:kinda of a tech geek in general.
Speaker:I love learning about technology
Speaker:and I guess technology is one more area
Speaker:that is kind of interesting to me
Speaker:because there's a lot of obviously great steps forward
Speaker:in the past few years.
Speaker:I think that, like the Apple iPhone for example
Speaker:is one of those things
Speaker:that on the face of it
Speaker:if you didn't know anything about it
Speaker:you wouldn't assume it's not accessible
Speaker:to the totally blind at all.
Speaker:Because it's a touch screen
Speaker:and because it,
Speaker:but Apple figured out a way
Speaker:to make it talk
Speaker:and to turn it in the past decade
Speaker:into one of the most popular devices
Speaker:blind people ever seen.
Speaker:So, the thing which interests me I guess
Speaker:about this field is that (indistinct)
Speaker:while in some ways it's kind of static
Speaker:is moving always moving forward
Speaker:and there's always something new coming up
Speaker:or new potential.
Speaker:And I remember back when I was
Speaker:in middle school, high school
Speaker:I had a device called a Braille `n Speak
Speaker:which was basically a portable note taker
Speaker:which ran some custom operating system
Speaker:they wrote themselves.
Speaker:But it in some ways was more advanced
Speaker:than the stuff this type of people had at the time.
Speaker:Because it could turn on
Speaker:that thing could turn on in seconds
Speaker:and be ready to take notes.
Speaker:And, that I have a soft spot for that thing
Speaker:even though I touched one of those in years.
Speaker:- Well, you mentioned being a geek
Speaker:with respect to tech
Speaker:and one of the things that you do
Speaker:is you work with a lot of different devices.
Speaker:So I know just on the projects we've worked on
Speaker:you have your different tools
Speaker:that you work with.
Speaker:Maybe you could kinda run through
Speaker:some of the assistive devices and technologies
Speaker:that you work with
Speaker:well for your personal life
Speaker:and then also lead your work life.
Speaker:- Sure, I have obviously a laptop here.
Speaker:I prefer, I have Mac Book Air here in front of me.
Speaker:I use pretty much every day.
Speaker:I like it,
Speaker:I like Apple generally.
Speaker:Just because it's been,
Speaker:it's nice and they seem
Speaker:to have a very strong commitment to accessibility.
Speaker:Not without misstep
Speaker:but most companies seem
Speaker:to have had those.
Speaker:I have a refreshable braille display
Speaker:which is basically a 40 character long braille line
Speaker:that you can read
Speaker:and that will change
Speaker:as the computer
Speaker:or whatever talks to it.
Speaker:It's expensive as heck
Speaker:but I've been told that
Speaker:they're working on
Speaker:and have come up with ways
Speaker:to reduce the price of those things.
Speaker:But they are much more, I guess common
Speaker:for people who are deaf blind
Speaker:but I get a lot out of it anyway
Speaker:because I like braille
Speaker:and braille is one of those things
Speaker:that I have come to appreciate more
Speaker:as I've gotten older.
Speaker:As a kid I didn't really
Speaker:get the point of it, I admit.
Speaker:- And - And you also, oh go ahead.
Speaker:- Oh, you go on.
Speaker:- And you work with your iPhone a lot.
Speaker:- I do, I do.
Speaker:I have that
Speaker:and iOS like I said earlier
Speaker:is pretty much one of the best things to happen
Speaker:to blind people in many years
Speaker:because Apple took a lot of their
Speaker:took a lot of pain
Speaker:to make accessibility pretty simple on iOS
Speaker:and make not only their own apps
Speaker:but third party apps playable.
Speaker:No it's not playable, excuse me accessible.
Speaker:Playable was a no.
Speaker:I do a lot gaming on the phone
Speaker:so that's where that came from accessible.
Speaker:- Well so, we've been working together
Speaker:on some projects over the past couple of years
Speaker:and when I connect with you about things
Speaker:it seems like you're always really busy.
Speaker:You always have a lot
Speaker:of things going on including work projects.
Speaker:You've obviously curved out
Speaker:a good niche for yourself work-wise
Speaker:but I know generally that
Speaker:it can be difficult
Speaker:to have busy work lives
Speaker:for people who are blind because of limitations
Speaker:with just technologies in the workplace.
Speaker:So, how has it worked out for you
Speaker:where you seem to be really busy all the time?
Speaker:- Well my current job is literally
Speaker:well suited to me because
Speaker:it is about accessibility testing.
Speaker:So, it's something that I can talk about
Speaker:and that's something that I write a book report about.
Speaker:I haven't had any major issues
Speaker:with technology on my own
Speaker:with these tech assist technology for a while.
Speaker:I do tend to,
Speaker:I mean I like to solve problems
Speaker:or if I can't solve them
Speaker:at least understand why things are the way they are.
Speaker:So if I run into a problem
Speaker:I'm likely to try
Speaker:and figure out what's going on.
Speaker:I'm a QA person
Speaker:I'm a quality assurance person.
Speaker:So I try to run through
Speaker:steps and figure out
Speaker:okay, it's not working
Speaker:if not what's going on
Speaker:and what can I do to fix it then, yeah.
Speaker:- Well I mean
Speaker:that's one of the things
Speaker:that I've enjoyed about
Speaker:our working relationship
Speaker:is just your approach to the work.
Speaker:I obviously there's uniquely
Speaker:what you're able to contribute
Speaker:with your knowledge about working
Speaker:with assistive devices.
Speaker:But beyond that
Speaker:you're able to put a lot of thoughtful
Speaker:well just a lot of thinking time into
Speaker:what you're reviewing
Speaker:what the opportunities are
Speaker:and what the challenges are.
Speaker:And then pulling that all together
Speaker:for reports and documents related to that.
Speaker:I mean that's really
Speaker:a special skill of itself.
Speaker:So kinda how did you develop that?
Speaker:Where you're able to,
Speaker:you have good business communication
Speaker:as part of your activities?
Speaker:- I didn't I wasn't taught it.
Speaker:I just kind of
Speaker:it came out of
Speaker:it grew out of
Speaker:I think I did all lot of beta testing for things.
Speaker:And a couple a few years ago
Speaker:I did some testing work
Speaker:for an iOS game
Speaker:which took up a lot of my mental energy,
Speaker:but it also taught me how to write a good bug report
Speaker:and how to explain issues
Speaker:in a way that was comprehensible to somebody else.
Speaker:And then the work that I'm doing now
Speaker:just kind of amplified that
Speaker:because we have a format we have to follow
Speaker:and it's all very structured.
Speaker:So the structure of
Speaker:the reports and issues that I work on
Speaker:helped structure my thought process, I suppose.
Speaker:And also I mean
Speaker:I just have a tendency
Speaker:to like the details of things.
Speaker:So, I go into a lot of mental depth about things
Speaker:that I'm passionate about
Speaker:and that accessibility just happens to be one of those.
Speaker:- Well you've also
Speaker:you've done quite a bit of work
Speaker:in showing off your experience
Speaker:through your credentials
Speaker:through the IAAP.
Speaker:So in terms of the certifications
Speaker:you've been able to work through the CPAC
Speaker:which is the certified practitioner in accessibility
Speaker:and also the web accessibility specialist certifications.
Speaker:So, those are pretty rigorous tasks
Speaker:that you have to take
Speaker:to be able to get that.
Speaker:So what was that experience like in terms
Speaker:of preparing for those tasks
Speaker:and taking them and that type of thing?
Speaker:- I enjoyed that.
Speaker:I liked I have stronger
Speaker:or more powerful memories of the CPWA.
Speaker:I think than of the other one because
Speaker:I felt like I got a lot more knowledge
Speaker:when preparing for the CPWA.
Speaker:'Cause you had to learn
Speaker:not only like
Speaker:the very basics of HTML, JavaScript
Speaker:and all the rest of it.
Speaker:But you had to learn how
Speaker:they interact with the screen reader
Speaker:or other technologies
Speaker:and what happens.
Speaker:Things like how little things like
Speaker:how you manage focus in a web app, for example.
Speaker:Things that you don't think about
Speaker:unless you're an accessibility person
Speaker:and are paid to think about them.
Speaker:And I really enjoyed learning not just
Speaker:how things work
Speaker:but why they work the way did then, yeah.
Speaker:- You mentioned in there that you had a,
Speaker:you have a good memory
Speaker:and one of the projects we were working on together
Speaker:was NASA for
Speaker:their new comprehensive website design rollout
Speaker:that they're working on.
Speaker:One of the areas we're looking at was navigation
Speaker:and I mean it's always amazing to me
Speaker:when you talk through your mental model
Speaker:that you're building
Speaker:just from what you're able
Speaker:to experience with the,
Speaker:through the screen reader
Speaker:and keyboard only access.
Speaker:And you're certainly skilled in that area
Speaker:but I mean it, navigation is
Speaker:just must be hugely challenging for yourself.
Speaker:And obviously your memory helps in that area
Speaker:but how do you approach that part of navigation
Speaker:with respect to your work?
Speaker:It seems like maybe not everybody
Speaker:has that ability to build
Speaker:the mental model that you do.
Speaker:- Well just, I mean take it one step at a time
Speaker:and don't try and think.
Speaker:I can't think too hard about the big picture.
Speaker:I don't think about the mental model
Speaker:I just kind of take it one or two steps at a time
Speaker:and try to think
Speaker:okay, how does it fit into the grander scheme
Speaker:of whatever I'm looking at?
Speaker:And, it's sometimes very tricky
Speaker:if the site, some of the NASA sites
Speaker:in particular the ones
Speaker:that displayed graphical information
Speaker:were kind of strange
Speaker:and a little hard to come grips with.
Speaker:But I've had that same experience
Speaker:across other places.
Speaker:But, a lot of times
Speaker:it's a matter of it slowly
Speaker:and not worrying too much
Speaker:about getting the same information
Speaker:as quickly as other people
Speaker:as long as I'm able to process it
Speaker:then come to an understanding
Speaker:of what I'm seeing
Speaker:or hearing as the case maybe.
Speaker:And depending on obviously web offers
Speaker:or others to get their coding right
Speaker:which is not always something
Speaker:that is guaranteed.
Speaker:- Yeah well another thing
Speaker:that clearly comes out that
Speaker:when we will work together on things is that
Speaker:it's easier to see where
Speaker:if a process working through
Speaker:a digital product or service
Speaker:can be made more efficient and simpler
Speaker:that helps everybody
Speaker:but it certainly speeds up your time
Speaker:with not having to hit dead ends
Speaker:and things like that
Speaker:as you mentioned with code issues and so on.
Speaker:- Yeah, if there's a weakness
Speaker:I think I tend to,
Speaker:like I said, I want to solve problems.
Speaker:And sometimes it's a little weird being
Speaker:in this situation where I'm not supposed to do that.
Speaker:I'm not supposed to speculate
Speaker:as to why things are the way they are.
Speaker:I really want to know
Speaker:and to be able to talk to developers
Speaker:and ask them, "Okay, what were you doing here?"
Speaker:What was it supposed to do
Speaker:because it didn't work in the way it's supposed?"
Speaker:Whereas if I'm a tester
Speaker:my job is to just go in and say,
Speaker:"Okay, this is experience."
Speaker:And they're not supposed to reach beyond
Speaker:what I'm actually encountering
Speaker:to speculate as to the why's and (indistinct)
Speaker:But yeah - Well you have
Speaker:speculation definitely works out
Speaker:in the types of projects that I work on
Speaker:because we like to start with foundational research
Speaker:that then drives the design
Speaker:that then drives the specification
Speaker:for the developers.
Speaker:So, now maybe thinking
Speaker:a little bit looking toward the future
Speaker:are there any certain areas
Speaker:that you're interested in getting involved in?
Speaker:Areas you wanna have more experience
Speaker:anything that you're looking forward to
Speaker:in your career?
Speaker:- Yeah, I'd like to do more tests
Speaker:more kind of liaison work I guess with developers,
Speaker:like as in, less route testing going through a process
Speaker:and more consultancy in the sense of
Speaker:okay, this is how we
Speaker:this is an issue.
Speaker:these are different ways we could solve it.
Speaker:Let's fix something
Speaker:and brainstorm and figure out what the issues are
Speaker:or what a good solution is.
Speaker:And if I'm,
Speaker:in terms of like bigger picture accessibility things
Speaker:that I think are worth,
Speaker:that I think are interesting.
Speaker:I'd like to do work in game accessibility.
Speaker:Gaming is a big passion of mine and accessibility.
Speaker:I think there's a lot of room
Speaker:for the intersection of those two interests
Speaker:but until fairly recently game accessibility
Speaker:was just kind of not really considered seriously by anybody.
Speaker:And to a certain extent
Speaker:I don't think it is still
Speaker:at least not for blind people.
Speaker:For sighted people
Speaker:and for people with other disabilities, yeah.
Speaker:But, totally blind people
Speaker:they've gotten a proverbial short end of the stick
Speaker:in that regard for quite a while
Speaker:I think and stuff.
Speaker:- There's certainly no shortage
Speaker:of things for us to be working on in
Speaker:as accessibility practitioners
Speaker:and we all wanna be striving
Speaker:to have a better future.
Speaker:But as you look at
Speaker:kind of the things
Speaker:that you experience
Speaker:in your work today
Speaker:are there certain areas
Speaker:where maybe you wish that
Speaker:more websites or applications
Speaker:were doing better?
Speaker:I mean what are some of your own
Speaker:kind of hot button items that
Speaker:you wish would be in better shape
Speaker:than they are today?
Speaker:- Well, it depends.
Speaker:I think that a lot of times
Speaker:like the very basics
Speaker:of accessible design
Speaker:aren't taught as well
Speaker:as they should be.
Speaker:Like, even something as simple as good alt text
Speaker:it's hard to write
Speaker:and is knowledge written
Speaker:or is sometimes just ignored completely.
Speaker:And something like
Speaker:even teaching people to use,
Speaker:to go through and run a keyboard test.
Speaker:Keyboard only tests on their content
Speaker:before they release it
Speaker:is a big thing that I think could be done
Speaker:or should be encouraged more
Speaker:because it's not something that I,
Speaker:for one thing I don't always enjoy it because
Speaker:as a screen reader user
Speaker:I don't have a way of knowing
Speaker:if something is missed or
Speaker:if I'm not seeing so something
Speaker:because it isn't there.
Speaker:Or if I'm not seeing something
Speaker:because the screen reader
Speaker:just doesn't recognize it's there.
Speaker:Now I can go into like the DOM model
Speaker:and inspect things
Speaker:and be like,
Speaker:oh this thing just wasn't showing up
Speaker:because it was marked as hidden or whatever
Speaker:but it shouldn't have to do that.
Speaker:The designer should know
Speaker:the basics of how to present information
Speaker:or so that kinda thing.
Speaker:Designers and developers both of them.
Speaker:- Well, Zack it's good
Speaker:to talk with you again
Speaker:for the purpose of this podcast.
Speaker:And I wanna thank you
Speaker:for sharing your experiences
Speaker:and look forward to working with you
Speaker:on more projects in the future.
