Episode 1

Need Leadership Support to Prioritize This Type of Work

Jen Devins, Google, Head Accessibility UX

Jen talks about her journey into user experience and design and then an opportunity to work with accessibility. She considered accessibility from a UX perspective as a champion of the user. Jen describes how research helped to develop training to create more awareness about the need for accessibility. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Info about Accessibility at Blink

Transcript
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(upbeat music)

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- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility.

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The people behind the progress.

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I'm Joe Welinske the creator and host of this series

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and as an accessibility professional myself,

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I find it very interesting as to how others

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who found their way into this profession.

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So let's meet one of those people right now

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and hear about their journey.

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All right well, here we go

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on another podcast where I get to meet

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an accessibility practitioner

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and today I'm pleased to be meeting with Jen Devins.

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Hello Jen, how are you today?

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- Hi Joe, I'm doing well thank you.

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Thanks for having me on here.

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- Well, I'm speaking from my home office on Vashon Island

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which is near Blinks headquarters office in Seattle.

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Where are you talking to us from today?

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- Today I'm actually talking to you from Boulder Colorado.

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I recently transitioned out here

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so still working at Google,

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but we have an office out here and we decided to pick up

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and move about a year ago to be out here.

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- All right well, yeah, I mean you kinda understand Google.

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It has a presence all over

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but I didn't realize there was a space in Boulder

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but that must be a nice place to decide to live.

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- Yes we've been very happy.

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We missed the ocean a little bit in California

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but it's been good out here.

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- Well, you men mentioned the Google relationship,

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why don't we start with you just briefly talking

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about what you're doing today.

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- Yes so it's been about, I think seven years now.

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I've been in this role where I lead the user experience team

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for Google's central accessibility organization.

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And our remit is essentially

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we have two key focus areas.

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And so one is we have researchers and designers

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and we actually partner with our engineers

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and product managers to create new applications

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or assistive technologies specifically

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for people with disabilities.

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And then the other area

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that we focus on is providing infrastructure guidelines,

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all kinds of tools that can help teams across Google

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ensure that their products are more accessible.

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So we do a lot of collaboration and consulting

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across the teams at Google.

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So it's quite a wide range of things

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but been really fun.

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- Well, yeah, that sounds like quite a lot of responsibility

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things going on and we can dig more

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into that a little bit later

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but one of the things that is a main objective

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of this podcast is just to find out how people

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made their way to where they are today,

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what their journey was into accessibility.

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So why don't you just go back in time

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let me know where that first came on the radar for you

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and we can move our way back up to today.

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- Yeah I agree, it's always interesting to hear

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how people got where they are.

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And I personally feel like in user experience for sure

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the paths to it vary quite a bit.

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Mine was actually a little bit more straightforward

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I think than most but I started in the arts,

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my undergrad was graphic design,

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as a kid I always just really appreciated

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and was into art.

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And so I did really focus

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on industrial arts and graphic design.

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As undergrad and I started in San Diego

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and I actually moved up to San Francisco

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to finish off my undergraduate.

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And in that environment, I started getting

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into just understanding the world of educational technology.

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And I really liked that space of combining

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some of the arts that I was learning

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of how to communicate and convey information,

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but doing it from perspective of educating people

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in this aspect it was actually more for adults versus kids.

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So that was an area that really piqued my interest.

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I finished off and just finishing

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out my industrial arts bachelor's.

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But then after that, I decided to go

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and get a master's focusing

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in the educational technology realm

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where that took me though was back to Illinois.

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So I was actually born well, I was born in St. Louis,

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but raised in Illinois most of my life.

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So I went back to Illinois to get a master's

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from the University of Illinois,

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and I focused on education with the emphasis

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of instructional technology.

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So still bringing that idea,

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again how to convey information

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with the perspective of training or educating people.

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And I really liked that.

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That was where I had wrapped up my education

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and then decided based on the opportunities

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and stuff to move back to the west coast.

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And there, I did explore

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a little bit of getting into academia,

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but I ended up taking more of the route

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of just getting into industry.

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And I started honestly dating myself

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as truly just like an old school web master.

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So just creating web application for certain businesses.

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And through that though just being in the Silicon Valley

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area I was able to make some connections

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and eventually became an official user experience,

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or actually back then we were called

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just more interaction designers.

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And I started working at eBay

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as an interaction designer and a researcher.

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And I was very very fortunate to have had somebody

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in that space that recognized,

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they saw something in me

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I don't think everybody saw in the interviews

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'cause I don't think they actually weren't great

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but there was one person who is still a friend today

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Kelly Braun I think she recognized something in me

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and brought me on as a researcher initially in eBay.

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And so I was really focusing on the users

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and understanding their needs.

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And then eventually just with my background in design

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I pivoted and stayed more within the design field.

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So I was there doing my interaction design role.

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And from there, as things were moving and shaking

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I decided to move to Google back in 2005.

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So I've been there quite some time.

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And throughout that experience, it was great

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because it is a big company that focuses

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on a lot of different things.

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I was able to go and work on different products

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which is almost like working in different companies.

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Like just the users were different,

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the teams obviously were different,

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the goals, even the types of design we needed to do

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was very different.

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So that was really enjoyable.

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And then I was starting to get into design management.

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And so that's where I was and they're just kinda...

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- I mean, just to check into where you came from so far,

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you touched a lot of spots that other people

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have found their way into accessibility

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except you touched a lot of them,

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which is education and trainings often a way

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that people come in sometimes exploring academia

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which you looked at the user experience area of design

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but then you also were involved in research.

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You were involved as working with web technologies early on.

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So you actually had all these foundational elements

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that a lot of people had already done.

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So it looks like that was setting you up

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for whatever this next chapter

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is that you're gonna talk about.

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- Yeah, that's a good summarization

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and yes 'cause I really appreciated

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and felt honored to be a user experience designer

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and at least my (indistinct) is always I am the voice

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of the user and I took that to heart in all of my work

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and as just life goes on my parents were getting older,

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my dad ended up having dementia.

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I started losing some of my hearing

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and life starts happening and you start to realize

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that a lot of the technology we were trying to use

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just kept getting harder to use

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in some areas and aspects for people.

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And that just really it just shifted my thinking

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a little bit and made me realize

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while I kept feeling like I'm the champion of the users,

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I was realizing wait a minute,

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I'm not the champion of all users here.

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I'm just thinking yes kind of prototypical user

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and not really thinking about the needs of everybody.

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And that all came around the time

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where myself and my career,

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I was satisfied but I was like, I don't know what's next.

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It was fine being a design manager.

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I just returned after having children

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and wasn't sure exactly where to take this.

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And so I was fortunate

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in that there was just a need for somebody

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at that point in time at Google

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I was working in the what is now called Workspace.

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So where Gmail and Calendar all that those products live.

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I was in that space and they needed somebody

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to start from a UX perspective,

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thinking about accessibility.

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So I decided to try that role out

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and brought with that the things that I had been observing

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like with my parents and myself,

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even just, and the challenges there.

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And so really then just pushing on,

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okay, this was my entry point here

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and my understanding and it drove a passion within me,

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now how do I get the rest of everybody

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to have that same passion because it is work

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and it is a new way to think for a lot of people

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and new things to consider.

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And so that's where my journey started on.

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And I wasn't alone by any means

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there were other people in the company

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thinking about this, but I felt like the starting point

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was how people that were designing and creating our products

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they just needed to understand the experience

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other people were having.

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Like, yes, they might understand their own experience

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of using even just Gmail for example

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but what is the experience of somebody

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that's blind using this?

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And so I really started pushing hard

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on let's do a research, let's bring users in

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and get an understanding of those experiences.

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And that's where it started.

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- Well, so as you came into that role

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I imagine there must have been a lot

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that you had to learn about and figure out

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relative to accessibility.

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So did that come from some formal network

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of accessibility education within Google or colleagues

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or how did you approach that part of it?

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- Yeah, that is a great question.

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It was a mixture of things.

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Again, I was very fortunate to have a few colleagues,

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one engineering had been thinking about accessibility

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at that point in time to some degree,

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so I had some engineers to just learn

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the basics around web technology or web accessibility

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and try to dig into that.

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And there's obviously great external resources as well

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from like WebAIM and stuff.

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So I really dug into that to understand how does it work?

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Like how do you support it from a technical perspective?

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'Cause again outside of accessibility as UX designer,

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I always felt it's important to understand

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how the technology works.

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Like the designs you want to get to, what does it require?

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So I dug into that and then I also was really fortunate

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that in our area, we had a few folks

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that were more on the program management side

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that had disabilities that I worked with

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and they were focused on accessibility as well.

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So it was getting the, they had expertise

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in using assistive technologies,

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but also them as end users and being able

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to talk with them on a regular basis

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and just observe and see what their experiences are.

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And that's only a few people

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but that was a great place to start

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and then expand out and just obviously look at or interact

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with and reach out to other people.

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- And then you started talking

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about how you started developing the program

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for the work that you are directly involved in.

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So what was that like?

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What were some of your priorities

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and how did that evolve?

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- Yeah like I said I really started on understanding

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the user and doing research in order

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to bring that back to the teams

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and convert that into training as well.

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So I would say education awareness

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getting into the empathy realm.

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That's where I started just to gain some traction

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get some interest.

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And like I said, make people aware.

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I think that's where I felt like we needed to start.

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And that was useful and took us to a certain level.

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But I think quickly after that you realize,

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okay all of these teams that were asking

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to do this they're aware

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and of course nobody was saying no we don't agree.

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I think everybody agreed yes this is important.

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But then it came to the very specifics

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of how do we actually do this?

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And so that's what we would dig in more,

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like I said engineering was already getting into this realm

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of how do you build in the support

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within your applications, but on the design side

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what are some things that we as designers

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can be thinking about early on as we're even just sketching.

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So really just trying to break that down

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to processes that people can follow.

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So that was a key thing.

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And then in any large organization

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I think the other thing that was very evident

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and something we're always going to be working

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with is the competing priorities

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that any sort of product team has.

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And so this is where we definitely realize

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like, okay we need more leadership support in this

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and to prioritize this type of work

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'cause as I mentioned it is work.

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I mean, we try really hard

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to essentially bake in these processes

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of how to think about people with disabilities

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throughout your design process and your engineering process.

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And we try to really bake it in.

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So it does feel like this is just the standard process

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but it takes work and it takes especially

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when you're ramping up learning.

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So it does take that time and we needed people

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to be on board to say it's okay

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if it takes a little extra time to launch X, Y, Z.

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And so that's where it started quickly.

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We started to see like the, I would say multi-prong approach

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of trying to get the leadership buy-in

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so they would prioritize this work

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on behalf of the teams and just note how important

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it is and then giving the people

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that are actually building these products

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the tools and processes to help do it.

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So we are still in the thick of that.

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We'll always be really focused on that,

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but it's been exciting to see in the past

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I guess seven years or so that I've been in this,

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the conversations have changed, which is great.

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And it's a little bit more of okay,

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they're getting more nuanced.

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It's like they're getting past the basics

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and like okay now how do I tackle this tricky problems

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which is great.

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- Is your organization set up with accessibility

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where you're involved with onboarding

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or spreading information across the whole organization

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or is it set up where individual product groups

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within Google are responsible

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for going after their own resources and finding their way?

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- Yeah, it's a little bit of a mixed approach.

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So as I mentioned, we're on the central accessibility team

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for the company.

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And so in that role, we are responsible

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and taking our part in much of the creation of the tooling

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and those resources but what we have is a hub

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and spoke model.

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So across the larger teams or organizations across

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the company they also have their own

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accessibility teams where they are obviously much more aware

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of their specific product needs and the users and all that.

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And so they are also responsible for their own work.

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And I think together I would say

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as Google's overall accessibility program,

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we do try to collaborate and help each other out

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when it comes to trying to get resourcing

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and things like that.

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We work together where we can on that

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but it is definitely like each of these larger organizations

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have their own smaller accessibility teams

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that are more focused on their own products

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and establishing their own accessibility program

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that fits with how that team works.

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- Well I'm always trying to look ahead a little bit

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I kinda look in the past and see where we've come.

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I'm not always feeling like we came as far

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as I thought we would have when I first started

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working on this 20 years ago

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but then there's all so amazing things

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that have happened with voice interaction

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that's been so valuable and technology playing a big role.

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As you look forward, are there any areas

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where you see gaps that you think accessibility

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needs to be attentive to or are there any particular things

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that you're really passionate about looking forward

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that you're excited about either Google

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or just generally for your accessibility work?

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- Yeah and I agree on the same perspective,

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there's some parts where really we're still talking

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about this and then there's some great advancements

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and exciting projects and yeah, I think in general,

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I'm excited about, in the UX community

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and just in general, I think we talk a lot

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about an adaptive design approach

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and in our team we've recently been talking

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a lot about ability-based design

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which I think go hand in hand 'cause the idea

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at a very high level is that it's less on the owners

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of the user to have to tweak a bunch of settings

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and stuff to make the experience that supports them.

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It's more kind of owners becomes more part

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of the application or the product

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that learns how the user interacts

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and can adapt to them.

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And with that approach I feel like it's exciting

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'cause it really focuses I think on the creativity

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of how do we solve these problems

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and from an engineering perspective

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as well as design problem,

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how can we more seamlessly meet the needs

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of different users?

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And I wouldn't say it steps away,

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it just goes beyond the feeling

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of like I just have my checklist of guidelines.

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I make sure my contrast is good.

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I think people get that but it's not very inspiring.

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And so I think just focusing on how do we make our products

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more understanding and adaptive of different people's needs

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and the way they interact to me seems really exciting.

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And with that it is great to see the different modalities

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of how we interact with products

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like you mentioned a lot of the voice interactive products

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that we have, I think are really exciting.

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I think there's long ways to go to be really inclusive

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of that and understand everybody's speech patterns

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and there's a lot there

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but it is great to see again these different modalities

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that people can interact with products

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and now in my perspective it's okay,

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we have these different ways

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and right now for the most part they're maybe siloed.

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It's like you interact with this device with your voice

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you interact with this device by touch screen.

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But how do we bring that together

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and have a truly multimodal experience for users

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so that even through completing one task,

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you can switch seamlessly between using touch and voice

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and eyes I think there's a lot there

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that to me, we are just in general,

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I'm excited to push on that more

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'cause I do feel like when speaking about accessibility,

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I wanna push people to think beyond compliance

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and just say no thinking this way can actually make us

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more innovative and really solve and address

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a lot of these problems with people or so.

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- Well, Jen, it's been great to have this chance

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to follow your journey here to what you're doing

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with accessibility today.

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And I hope everything continues to go well

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and maybe we can meet up in the real world sometime

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when that's possible again.

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- That would be lovely.

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Yeah, I can't wait for that.

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Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Digital Accessibility
Digital Accessibility
The People Behind the Progress

About your host

Profile picture for Joe Welinske

Joe Welinske

Serving as Accessibility Director at Blink is Joe's main activity. Blink is devoted to helping ensure that digital products and services can be used by everyone. As Director, Joe is responsible for helping Blink's practitioners to build accessibility into everything they do. He also evangelizes the need for accessibility with Blink's clients and partners.
Joe is a co-organizer of the Seattle Inclusive Design and Accessibility meetup group and he serves as the Secretary of the King County Metro Paratransit Advisory Committee.