Need Leadership Support to Prioritize This Type of Work

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(upbeat music)

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- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility.

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The people behind the progress.

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I'm Joe Welinske the creator and host of this series

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and as an accessibility professional myself,

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I find it very interesting as to how others

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who found their way into this profession.

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So let's meet one of those people right now

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and hear about their journey.

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All right well, here we go

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on another podcast where I get to meet

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an accessibility practitioner

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and today I'm pleased to be meeting with Jen Devins.

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Hello Jen, how are you today?

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- Hi Joe, I'm doing well thank you.

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Thanks for having me on here.

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- Well, I'm speaking from my home office on Vashon Island

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which is near Blinks headquarters office in Seattle.

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Where are you talking to us from today?

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- Today I'm actually talking to you from Boulder Colorado.

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I recently transitioned out here

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so still working at Google,

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but we have an office out here and we decided to pick up

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and move about a year ago to be out here.

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- All right well, yeah, I mean you kinda understand Google.

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It has a presence all over

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but I didn't realize there was a space in Boulder

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but that must be a nice place to decide to live.

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- Yes we've been very happy.

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We missed the ocean a little bit in California

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but it's been good out here.

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- Well, you men mentioned the Google relationship,

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why don't we start with you just briefly talking

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about what you're doing today.

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- Yes so it's been about, I think seven years now.

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I've been in this role where I lead the user experience team

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for Google's central accessibility organization.

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And our remit is essentially

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we have two key focus areas.

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And so one is we have researchers and designers

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and we actually partner with our engineers

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and product managers to create new applications

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or assistive technologies specifically

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for people with disabilities.

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And then the other area

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that we focus on is providing infrastructure guidelines,

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all kinds of tools that can help teams across Google

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ensure that their products are more accessible.

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So we do a lot of collaboration and consulting

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across the teams at Google.

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So it's quite a wide range of things

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but been really fun.

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- Well, yeah, that sounds like quite a lot of responsibility

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things going on and we can dig more

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into that a little bit later

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but one of the things that is a main objective

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of this podcast is just to find out how people

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made their way to where they are today,

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what their journey was into accessibility.

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So why don't you just go back in time

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let me know where that first came on the radar for you

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and we can move our way back up to today.

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- Yeah I agree, it's always interesting to hear

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how people got where they are.

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And I personally feel like in user experience for sure

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the paths to it vary quite a bit.

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Mine was actually a little bit more straightforward

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I think than most but I started in the arts,

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my undergrad was graphic design,

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as a kid I always just really appreciated

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and was into art.

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And so I did really focus

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on industrial arts and graphic design.

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As undergrad and I started in San Diego

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and I actually moved up to San Francisco

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to finish off my undergraduate.

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And in that environment, I started getting

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into just understanding the world of educational technology.

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And I really liked that space of combining

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some of the arts that I was learning

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of how to communicate and convey information,

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but doing it from perspective of educating people

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in this aspect it was actually more for adults versus kids.

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So that was an area that really piqued my interest.

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I finished off and just finishing

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out my industrial arts bachelor's.

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But then after that, I decided to go

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and get a master's focusing

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in the educational technology realm

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where that took me though was back to Illinois.

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So I was actually born well, I was born in St. Louis,

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but raised in Illinois most of my life.

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So I went back to Illinois to get a master's

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from the University of Illinois,

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and I focused on education with the emphasis

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of instructional technology.

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So still bringing that idea,

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again how to convey information

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with the perspective of training or educating people.

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And I really liked that.

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That was where I had wrapped up my education

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and then decided based on the opportunities

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and stuff to move back to the west coast.

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And there, I did explore

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a little bit of getting into academia,

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but I ended up taking more of the route

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of just getting into industry.

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And I started honestly dating myself

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as truly just like an old school web master.

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So just creating web application for certain businesses.

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And through that though just being in the Silicon Valley

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area I was able to make some connections

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and eventually became an official user experience,

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or actually back then we were called

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just more interaction designers.

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And I started working at eBay

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as an interaction designer and a researcher.

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And I was very very fortunate to have had somebody

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in that space that recognized,

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they saw something in me

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I don't think everybody saw in the interviews

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'cause I don't think they actually weren't great

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but there was one person who is still a friend today

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Kelly Braun I think she recognized something in me

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and brought me on as a researcher initially in eBay.

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And so I was really focusing on the users

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and understanding their needs.

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And then eventually just with my background in design

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I pivoted and stayed more within the design field.

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So I was there doing my interaction design role.

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And from there, as things were moving and shaking

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I decided to move to Google back in 2005.

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So I've been there quite some time.

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And throughout that experience, it was great

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because it is a big company that focuses

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on a lot of different things.

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I was able to go and work on different products

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which is almost like working in different companies.

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Like just the users were different,

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the teams obviously were different,

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the goals, even the types of design we needed to do

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was very different.

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So that was really enjoyable.

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And then I was starting to get into design management.

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And so that's where I was and they're just kinda...

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- I mean, just to check into where you came from so far,

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you touched a lot of spots that other people

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have found their way into accessibility

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except you touched a lot of them,

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which is education and trainings often a way

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that people come in sometimes exploring academia

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which you looked at the user experience area of design

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but then you also were involved in research.

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You were involved as working with web technologies early on.

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So you actually had all these foundational elements

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that a lot of people had already done.

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So it looks like that was setting you up

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for whatever this next chapter

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is that you're gonna talk about.

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- Yeah, that's a good summarization

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and yes 'cause I really appreciated

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and felt honored to be a user experience designer

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and at least my (indistinct) is always I am the voice

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of the user and I took that to heart in all of my work

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and as just life goes on my parents were getting older,

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my dad ended up having dementia.

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I started losing some of my hearing

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and life starts happening and you start to realize

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that a lot of the technology we were trying to use

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just kept getting harder to use

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in some areas and aspects for people.

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And that just really it just shifted my thinking

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a little bit and made me realize

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while I kept feeling like I'm the champion of the users,

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I was realizing wait a minute,

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I'm not the champion of all users here.

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I'm just thinking yes kind of prototypical user

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and not really thinking about the needs of everybody.

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And that all came around the time

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where myself and my career,

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I was satisfied but I was like, I don't know what's next.

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It was fine being a design manager.

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I just returned after having children

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and wasn't sure exactly where to take this.

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And so I was fortunate

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in that there was just a need for somebody

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at that point in time at Google

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I was working in the what is now called Workspace.

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So where Gmail and Calendar all that those products live.

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I was in that space and they needed somebody

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to start from a UX perspective,

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thinking about accessibility.

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So I decided to try that role out

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and brought with that the things that I had been observing

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like with my parents and myself,

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even just, and the challenges there.

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And so really then just pushing on,

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okay, this was my entry point here

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and my understanding and it drove a passion within me,

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now how do I get the rest of everybody

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to have that same passion because it is work

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and it is a new way to think for a lot of people

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and new things to consider.

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And so that's where my journey started on.

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And I wasn't alone by any means

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there were other people in the company

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thinking about this, but I felt like the starting point

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was how people that were designing and creating our products

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they just needed to understand the experience

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other people were having.

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Like, yes, they might understand their own experience

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of using even just Gmail for example

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but what is the experience of somebody

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that's blind using this?

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And so I really started pushing hard

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on let's do a research, let's bring users in

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and get an understanding of those experiences.

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And that's where it started.

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- Well, so as you came into that role

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I imagine there must have been a lot

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that you had to learn about and figure out

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relative to accessibility.

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So did that come from some formal network

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of accessibility education within Google or colleagues

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or how did you approach that part of it?

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- Yeah, that is a great question.

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It was a mixture of things.

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Again, I was very fortunate to have a few colleagues,

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one engineering had been thinking about accessibility

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at that point in time to some degree,

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so I had some engineers to just learn

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the basics around web technology or web accessibility

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and try to dig into that.

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And there's obviously great external resources as well

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from like WebAIM and stuff.

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So I really dug into that to understand how does it work?

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Like how do you support it from a technical perspective?

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'Cause again outside of accessibility as UX designer,

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I always felt it's important to understand

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how the technology works.

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Like the designs you want to get to, what does it require?

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So I dug into that and then I also was really fortunate

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that in our area, we had a few folks

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that were more on the program management side

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that had disabilities that I worked with

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and they were focused on accessibility as well.

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So it was getting the, they had expertise

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in using assistive technologies,

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but also them as end users and being able

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to talk with them on a regular basis

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and just observe and see what their experiences are.

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And that's only a few people

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but that was a great place to start

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and then expand out and just obviously look at or interact

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with and reach out to other people.

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- And then you started talking

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about how you started developing the program

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for the work that you are directly involved in.

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So what was that like?

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What were some of your priorities

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and how did that evolve?

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- Yeah like I said I really started on understanding

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the user and doing research in order

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to bring that back to the teams

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and convert that into training as well.

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So I would say education awareness

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getting into the empathy realm.

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That's where I started just to gain some traction

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get some interest.

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And like I said, make people aware.

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I think that's where I felt like we needed to start.

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And that was useful and took us to a certain level.

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But I think quickly after that you realize,

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okay all of these teams that were asking

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to do this they're aware

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and of course nobody was saying no we don't agree.

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I think everybody agreed yes this is important.

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But then it came to the very specifics

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of how do we actually do this?

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And so that's what we would dig in more,

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like I said engineering was already getting into this realm

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of how do you build in the support

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within your applications, but on the design side

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what are some things that we as designers

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can be thinking about early on as we're even just sketching.

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So really just trying to break that down

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to processes that people can follow.

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So that was a key thing.

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And then in any large organization

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I think the other thing that was very evident

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and something we're always going to be working

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with is the competing priorities

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that any sort of product team has.

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And so this is where we definitely realize

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like, okay we need more leadership support in this

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and to prioritize this type of work

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'cause as I mentioned it is work.

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I mean, we try really hard

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to essentially bake in these processes

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of how to think about people with disabilities

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throughout your design process and your engineering process.

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And we try to really bake it in.

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So it does feel like this is just the standard process

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but it takes work and it takes especially

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when you're ramping up learning.

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So it does take that time and we needed people

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to be on board to say it's okay

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if it takes a little extra time to launch X, Y, Z.

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And so that's where it started quickly.

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We started to see like the, I would say multi-prong approach

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of trying to get the leadership buy-in

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so they would prioritize this work

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on behalf of the teams and just note how important

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it is and then giving the people

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that are actually building these products

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the tools and processes to help do it.

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So we are still in the thick of that.

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We'll always be really focused on that,

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but it's been exciting to see in the past

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I guess seven years or so that I've been in this,

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the conversations have changed, which is great.

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And it's a little bit more of okay,

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they're getting more nuanced.

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It's like they're getting past the basics

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and like okay now how do I tackle this tricky problems

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which is great.

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- Is your organization set up with accessibility

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where you're involved with onboarding

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or spreading information across the whole organization

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or is it set up where individual product groups

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within Google are responsible

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for going after their own resources and finding their way?

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- Yeah, it's a little bit of a mixed approach.

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So as I mentioned, we're on the central accessibility team

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for the company.

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And so in that role, we are responsible

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and taking our part in much of the creation of the tooling

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and those resources but what we have is a hub

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and spoke model.

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So across the larger teams or organizations across

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the company they also have their own

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accessibility teams where they are obviously much more aware

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of their specific product needs and the users and all that.

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And so they are also responsible for their own work.

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And I think together I would say

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as Google's overall accessibility program,

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we do try to collaborate and help each other out

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when it comes to trying to get resourcing

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and things like that.

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We work together where we can on that

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but it is definitely like each of these larger organizations

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have their own smaller accessibility teams

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that are more focused on their own products

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and establishing their own accessibility program

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that fits with how that team works.

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- Well I'm always trying to look ahead a little bit

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I kinda look in the past and see where we've come.

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I'm not always feeling like we came as far

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as I thought we would have when I first started

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working on this 20 years ago

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but then there's all so amazing things

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that have happened with voice interaction

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that's been so valuable and technology playing a big role.

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As you look forward, are there any areas

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where you see gaps that you think accessibility

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needs to be attentive to or are there any particular things

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that you're really passionate about looking forward

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that you're excited about either Google

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or just generally for your accessibility work?

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- Yeah and I agree on the same perspective,

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there's some parts where really we're still talking

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about this and then there's some great advancements

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and exciting projects and yeah, I think in general,

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I'm excited about, in the UX community

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and just in general, I think we talk a lot

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about an adaptive design approach

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and in our team we've recently been talking

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a lot about ability-based design

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which I think go hand in hand 'cause the idea

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at a very high level is that it's less on the owners

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of the user to have to tweak a bunch of settings

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and stuff to make the experience that supports them.

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It's more kind of owners becomes more part

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of the application or the product

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that learns how the user interacts

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and can adapt to them.

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And with that approach I feel like it's exciting

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'cause it really focuses I think on the creativity

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of how do we solve these problems

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and from an engineering perspective

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as well as design problem,

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how can we more seamlessly meet the needs

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of different users?

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And I wouldn't say it steps away,

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it just goes beyond the feeling

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of like I just have my checklist of guidelines.

Speaker: 00:21:57

I make sure my contrast is good.

Speaker: 00:21:59

I think people get that but it's not very inspiring.

Speaker: 00:22:05

And so I think just focusing on how do we make our products

Speaker: 00:22:09

more understanding and adaptive of different people's needs

Speaker: 00:22:13

and the way they interact to me seems really exciting.

Speaker: 00:22:17

And with that it is great to see the different modalities

Speaker: 00:22:24

of how we interact with products

Speaker: 00:22:26

like you mentioned a lot of the voice interactive products

Speaker: 00:22:31

that we have, I think are really exciting.

Speaker: 00:22:34

I think there's long ways to go to be really inclusive

Speaker: 00:22:38

of that and understand everybody's speech patterns

Speaker: 00:22:42

and there's a lot there

Speaker: 00:22:44

but it is great to see again these different modalities

Speaker: 00:22:49

that people can interact with products

Speaker: 00:22:50

and now in my perspective it's okay,

Speaker: 00:22:53

we have these different ways

Speaker: 00:22:55

and right now for the most part they're maybe siloed.

Speaker: 00:22:59

It's like you interact with this device with your voice

Speaker: 00:23:02

you interact with this device by touch screen.

Speaker: 00:23:04

But how do we bring that together

Speaker: 00:23:05

and have a truly multimodal experience for users

Speaker: 00:23:08

so that even through completing one task,

Speaker: 00:23:12

you can switch seamlessly between using touch and voice

Speaker: 00:23:16

and eyes I think there's a lot there

Speaker: 00:23:19

that to me, we are just in general,

Speaker: 00:23:24

I'm excited to push on that more

Speaker: 00:23:26

'cause I do feel like when speaking about accessibility,

Speaker: 00:23:34

I wanna push people to think beyond compliance

Speaker: 00:23:37

and just say no thinking this way can actually make us

Speaker: 00:23:42

more innovative and really solve and address

Speaker: 00:23:46

a lot of these problems with people or so.

Speaker: 00:23:50

- Well, Jen, it's been great to have this chance

Speaker: 00:23:54

to follow your journey here to what you're doing

Speaker: 00:23:57

with accessibility today.

Speaker: 00:23:59

And I hope everything continues to go well

Speaker: 00:24:03

and maybe we can meet up in the real world sometime

Speaker: 00:24:07

when that's possible again.

Speaker: 00:24:09

- That would be lovely.

Speaker: 00:24:10

Yeah, I can't wait for that.

Speaker: 00:24:12

Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.