Episode 1
We Need a Lot of People Knowing Just a Little Bit
Michele A. Williams, M.A.W. Consulting, owner
Michele talks about her wide variety of experiences in accessibility. Much of her work aligned with user experience activities. This included graduate research and study, working as a researcher, and accessibility consulting. Michele has written many papers and articles and has a patent for a wearable device.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(dramatic music)
Speaker:- Hello, this is "Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:The People Behind the Progress."
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,
Speaker:and as an accessibility professional myself,
Speaker:I find it very interesting as to how others have found
Speaker:their way into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now
Speaker:and hear about their journey.
Speaker:(upbeat music)
Speaker:All right, well, here we go with another episode
Speaker:where I have the great opportunity to talk
Speaker:with another accessibility practitioner.
Speaker:And today I'm pleased to be speaking
Speaker:with Dr. Michele A. Williams.
Speaker:Hello, Michele, how are you today?
Speaker:- I'm wonderful, how are you?
Speaker:- Oh, it's pretty good.
Speaker:And it's another day in my office on Vashon Island,
Speaker:which is near Blink's headquarters in Seattle.
Speaker:Where are you talking to us from?
Speaker:- Currently in Charlotte, North Carolina,
Speaker:but for only for the next few days (laughing).
Speaker:- Alright, and where are you usually located?
Speaker:- Well, yes, so Charlotte area,
Speaker:but I'm taking a brief detour to come back, so,
Speaker:we're moving houses, fun times.
Speaker:- Alright, well, it's great to have you
Speaker:as part of the program and usually the best place to start
Speaker:is if you'd tell us a little bit about
Speaker:what you're currently up to now.
Speaker:- Awesome, so I am currently owner of M.A.W. Consulting,
Speaker:LLC, Making Accessibility Work.
Speaker:So as of 2020, right before the world events,
Speaker:I decided to branch out onto my own and provide my services
Speaker:in the form of independent consulting.
Speaker:So I've been able to do that, thank goodness, since then.
Speaker:And so I help with establishing accessibility programs,
Speaker:giving guided consulting, accessibility audits,
Speaker:and also training and workshops.
Speaker:- Well, it's always a big leap to start doing that
Speaker:on your own.
Speaker:What have been some of the challenges besides starting it
Speaker:during pandemic and that type of thing?
Speaker:- Oh, just that, you know, besides, you know,
Speaker:starting it during a global pandemic, you know,
Speaker:I think also when you're a business owner,
Speaker:particularly starting with just yourself,
Speaker:you are everything,
Speaker:you wear all the hats and so you may know your practice,
Speaker:but you don't necessarily know all the other ins-and-outs
Speaker:of running a business,
Speaker:particularly since I didn't necessarily go
Speaker:to business school before I did this,
Speaker:so a lot of learning and even introspection of myself
Speaker:as I go but it's been wonderful.
Speaker:And I also meant to mention,
Speaker:I can't forget mentioning research, to use the research too,
Speaker:which is pretty much my other career.
Speaker:Some sort of both UX research
Speaker:as well as accessibility consultant.
Speaker:- Well, I definitely wanna get a little bit more detail
Speaker:about that later in our discussion,
Speaker:but one of the areas I always like to find out about
Speaker:is how you became familiar with the concept of accessibility
Speaker:and then how you decided to make that
Speaker:part of your regular work life?
Speaker:- Yeah, funny enough, I gave a talk not too long ago
Speaker:with a colleague called,
Speaker:"How do I know you know accessibility?"`
Speaker:Because we know that unfortunately
Speaker:it's not yet the mainstream thing, right?
Speaker:So everyone has a story.
Speaker:So my story is firstly that I,
Speaker:when I was coming out of high school,
Speaker:decided to get a computer science degree.
Speaker:I didn't even know quite what that was.
Speaker:I just knew, to date myself, I came outta high school in
Speaker:'99, so obviously Y2K, all of that,
Speaker:I knew I was good at math, let's do this computer thing.
Speaker:And so I really enjoyed that, really enjoyed programming,
Speaker:but of course learned nothing about accessibility
Speaker:or even user experience, even though I was doing that.
Speaker:I didn't realize at the time
Speaker:when I was making my outputs of my C program, you know,
Speaker:spaced well and aligned and all of that,
Speaker:I was trying to make it easier for my professors
Speaker:to grade my homework.
Speaker:I thought I just wanted an A,
Speaker:but really I was doing user experience.
Speaker:But as I decided to go to grad school after my Bachelor's,
Speaker:which isn't always typical of folks
Speaker:who had those kind of computer degrees,
Speaker:they wanted to just start working.
Speaker:But I decided to get a Masters of Software Engineering
Speaker:at Auburn University under Dr. Juan Gilbert,
Speaker:who's now at University of Florida.
Speaker:And somewhere along that path of him
Speaker:being our professor for a lot of our classes
Speaker:and our advisor,
Speaker:I just remember this moment of him asking,
Speaker:"How would a person with a disability use
Speaker:what you all are making in terms of the assignment
Speaker:we were working on?"
Speaker:And I'd never heard that question.
Speaker:At that point I had at least heard about user experience
Speaker:and HCC and HCI, but hadn't heard about accessibility.
Speaker:And that just struck a chord with me.
Speaker:It made technology make more sense to me.
Speaker:It made what I was doing have more purpose.
Speaker:And as soon as that started to resonate,
Speaker:I knew that that's what I wanted to do.
Speaker:Now, I didn't go do it right away,
Speaker:but it always stuck with me that there's this idea
Speaker:that we could be making technology accessible
Speaker:to a group that we don't even often know about.
Speaker:And so that was somewhat the start of the journey,
Speaker:although fast forward five years
Speaker:before I actually got into it.
Speaker:- Well, and so then what was the next milestone
Speaker:that brought you into actively working with it?
Speaker:- So when I graduated with my Masters,
Speaker:one of the things I was uniquely qualified to do
Speaker:was voice user interface design.
Speaker:Now, at the time, we didn't have the cool Alexa and Siri
Speaker:and all of that.
Speaker:That was more so those 800 numbers where you call,
Speaker:like the Post Office or whomever and talk to a computer.
Speaker:And so I had a friend who had, that was her passion,
Speaker:that was her dream job, and they were hiring.
Speaker:So I went and it was in the area in Maryland where I'm from.
Speaker:So I was hired to do that, and I did that.
Speaker:I thought that would be my career.
Speaker:I was good at it, you know, we were running along,
Speaker:but something happened, maybe the economy shifted,
Speaker:I shifted, you know, things just fell into place
Speaker:where I just remembered that passion I had
Speaker:for accessibility when I first learned about it.
Speaker:Again, I didn't even know where to start,
Speaker:where to go, what to do,
Speaker:but something just in me just said, you're not doing,
Speaker:you're doing a job you're in
Speaker:and that could be your career,
Speaker:but it's not the career you wanted to do.
Speaker:It's not the career you told people you wanted to do even.
Speaker:I even remembered conversations with some mentors
Speaker:where I said, "I'm gonna do that disability work,"
Speaker:but I didn't pursue it.
Speaker:And so I finally got to a point where I just said,
Speaker:"No, I'm gonna look into it."
Speaker:I realized I could not stay in that field
Speaker:without that passion.
Speaker:And so I just started looking up jobs
Speaker:and I found one at a company
Speaker:that's now known as Level Access.
Speaker:At the time it was called SSB BART Group.
Speaker:And the biggest thing is they said, "We'll train you,
Speaker:we'll train you to learn how to test against,
Speaker:at the time was more so Section 508, but WCAG."
Speaker:And it was something that was kind of entry level,
Speaker:but I didn't care.
Speaker:I just wanted to learn more about this.
Speaker:And that was the moment, getting that job,
Speaker:working alongside people with disabilities,
Speaker:learning the standards,
Speaker:learning what I was supposed to be doing,
Speaker:what we were all supposed to be doing.
Speaker:And then eventually about a year into that,
Speaker:I decided to go back to school one more time
Speaker:to finish out my doctorate.
Speaker:And so that's when my doctorate
Speaker:focuses on human-centered computing.
Speaker:So UX research with a lens on accessible technology
Speaker:and disabled participants in research.
Speaker:- Well, that's always a tough spot
Speaker:is when you're first learning about it,
Speaker:how do you do that?
Speaker:And I guess you couldn't have ended up in a better spot
Speaker:than with a bunch of people that were willing
Speaker:to help guide you into that space.
Speaker:And so, you know, during that time, were you participating
Speaker:in their work with clients to solve problems?
Speaker:- Exactly, so at the time, they've since expanded,
Speaker:but we were still a small but mighty group at that time.
Speaker:So it was primarily, particularly in the Virginia office,
Speaker:we were working, so if you know anything about working
Speaker:in DC, Maryland, Virginia,
Speaker:a lot of things swirl around being government contractors.
Speaker:So everything comes from the government
Speaker:and then you branch out to contractors.
Speaker:And part of Section 508 says
Speaker:that the federal government,
Speaker:who is the number one procurer of IT,
Speaker:has to pick the most accessible software
Speaker:of whatever they're trying to procure.
Speaker:So that is the catalyst for companies to try and be
Speaker:as accessible as possible.
Speaker:And so we were one of the firms that could check that,
Speaker:that could authenticate that your hardware, software,
Speaker:or your web services were accessible against the standards.
Speaker:And so each day it was checking these different systems
Speaker:against that so that's how you got to know it.
Speaker:You got to understand it, you got to understand the habits
Speaker:developers tended to have and how to correct that.
Speaker:And so that repetitive nature really ingrained me
Speaker:in what does, what is at least the standard
Speaker:for defining accessibility.
Speaker:And then I was able to couple that eventually
Speaker:with doing research with participants
Speaker:who had various disabilities and learn the human side of it,
Speaker:right, learn the usability side of it,
Speaker:not just the standards,
Speaker:and then start to learn the lived experience.
Speaker:So all of that started to come together for me
Speaker:in over the years.
Speaker:It was great.
Speaker:- Well, it must have been then a big difference
Speaker:to suddenly be back in a academic setting
Speaker:for the next stage.
Speaker:What was that like and and how did that contribute?
Speaker:- Whoo, you may know a few things.
Speaker:And so yes, it's very difficult to go back to school,
Speaker:particularly for a doctorate,
Speaker:particularly in an environment that's a traditional,
Speaker:not necessarily like an executive doctorate.
Speaker:So I did have to leave Level Access at some point
Speaker:because my program, which was at UMBC,
Speaker:University of Maryland Baltimore County,
Speaker:was more traditional.
Speaker:We had to do, you know, meetings during the day,
Speaker:travel to conferences, et cetera.
Speaker:So it was a shift,
Speaker:but thankfully things worked out
Speaker:to where I was able to do that, able to go back full-time.
Speaker:And I'm so grateful I did because it gave me some great
Speaker:experiences and some great connections that, you know,
Speaker:I still have to this day
Speaker:and it let me be immersed in this world.
Speaker:You know, when you're in that academic environment,
Speaker:it's all about that subject area
Speaker:and you don't get that when you're working
Speaker:so appreciate that time for sure.
Speaker:And was able to even, I always think about that movie,
Speaker:oh, where the two men are interns at Google
Speaker:when they're grown, you know,
Speaker:I was at that point a more mature adult
Speaker:but I still had some internships.
Speaker:And so that was an interesting experience as well.
Speaker:So I was sort of the elder statesman of our lab
Speaker:and things like that, but I didn't mind,
Speaker:it was helpful to be able to mentor
Speaker:even in the capacity as a student.
Speaker:And also I was very clear on why I had gone back to school,
Speaker:which made the process probably go a little smoother.
Speaker:'Cause I was very clear what I was there to do
Speaker:and accomplish and was able to accomplish it.
Speaker:- Well, pursuing graduate studies at the doctoral level
Speaker:usually includes doing a lot of useful research
Speaker:and work that can be utilized by other people.
Speaker:What were some of the subjects that you pursued
Speaker:in that part of your career?
Speaker:- Awesome, so I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do
Speaker:so I fell into sort of two areas
Speaker:that ended up suiting me very well
Speaker:and some of them were like full circle moments.
Speaker:So the first was Fashion For The Blind
Speaker:and so that started as a class project.
Speaker:I was in an Assistive Technology class and we were,
Speaker:you know, asked to come up with a problem set.
Speaker:And I say that came full circle
Speaker:because when I was very little,
Speaker:what I wanted to be when I grew up was a fashion designer,
Speaker:and that fell off around middle school
Speaker:when we got the channel Bravo and I saw a real fashion show
Speaker:and I was like, you know,
Speaker:I'm not quite at that level if that's what it takes
Speaker:so I backed off of that,
Speaker:but I always loved clothes and fashion and so it struck me
Speaker:that's such a visual medium,
Speaker:how does that work if you can't see?
Speaker:And so that began a two-year journey
Speaker:into a lot of interviews and even prototyping
Speaker:some various technologies around
Speaker:how we can make that more accessible.
Speaker:And then particularly it came to me
Speaker:that there's objective information about clothing,
Speaker:like color, size, what it is,
Speaker:and then there's subjective
Speaker:and that takes more of a human touch to understand
Speaker:the fashion of the time and what goes together
Speaker:and what coordinates and all of that.
Speaker:So we explored different technologies,
Speaker:so a crowdsourcing app called VizWiz that came out of,
Speaker:oh boy, Carnegie Mellon,
Speaker:and then a RFID kind of tagging system
Speaker:for the objective side and explore some prototypes
Speaker:and publish some papers around that.
Speaker:So that was one, then it came down to some money
Speaker:and my advisors put in a request for proposals
Speaker:with Toyota Robotics at the time for navigation.
Speaker:And that's something that comes up a lot,
Speaker:blind navigation, particularly,
Speaker:how do we improve on pedestrian navigation
Speaker:for particularly those either using a cane or a guide dog,
Speaker:but that particularly that last hundred feet, you know,
Speaker:GPS does a great job of getting you near, say the door,
Speaker:or near the building,
Speaker:but how do you get to your actual destination?
Speaker:So then my last three years were exploring,
Speaker:creating a technology around that, but very much
Speaker:doing it from a human-centered point of view.
Speaker:- And during that time, did you have the opportunity
Speaker:to share your work at conferences or,
Speaker:I know when I'd go to events
Speaker:I enjoy seeing a lot of that originating research
Speaker:and to see what might be possibilities for the future?
Speaker:- Absolutely, so all of my papers are on my LinkedIn,
Speaker:you know, it's publish or perish,
Speaker:you're required to go to at least
Speaker:maybe three or four conferences for us every year.
Speaker:So the biggest one for me was the ACM Assets Conference.
Speaker:So the Association of Computing Machinery Assets Conference
Speaker:was sort of my home.
Speaker:Another big one, I never published a paper there,
Speaker:but another big one is CHI,
Speaker:the Computer Human Interaction Conference under ACM.
Speaker:And then there were a few others scattered,
Speaker:which also helped me to travel
Speaker:and have these other experiences as well,
Speaker:going and presenting to the conferences
Speaker:or publishing for journals.
Speaker:I've done that as well.
Speaker:So definitely published everything,
Speaker:it's all freely available if any of it interests you.
Speaker:And we did have some really good,
Speaker:I would say kind of almost seminal, kind of findings,
Speaker:particularly from both the fashion work
Speaker:and the navigation work,
Speaker:because we took a different lens of not just starting
Speaker:with what we thought the problem was,
Speaker:but starting with the folks who are engaging
Speaker:in those activities and talking with them first
Speaker:about what they saw as sort of the gaps
Speaker:in the current technology landscape.
Speaker:- Well, so that brought you through another level
Speaker:of your academic work and then back into the work world
Speaker:after that, what was the next step?
Speaker:- Yeah, back in the work world.
Speaker:So to review my resume from there, so funny,
Speaker:first stop was Intel for a little while,
Speaker:working in wearables.
Speaker:So again, another full circle moment of working
Speaker:in somewhat fashion, but from a technology lens
Speaker:so that was really fun.
Speaker:They were doing a lot of kind of R&D-type work there,
Speaker:but unfortunately I kind of caught them
Speaker:at the tail end of that work.
Speaker:And then Intel decided to move in different direction.
Speaker:And so not long after that, I ended up at Pearson,
Speaker:the learning company,
Speaker:and that is where I spent about three years
Speaker:as a senior UX researcher focused on accessibility.
Speaker:And so my main gig was to run research
Speaker:with disabled participants to start to glean
Speaker:some of the insights about the education products,
Speaker:particularly our college education products at Pearson.
Speaker:However, we know that when you work in industry
Speaker:and in a digital space,
Speaker:the digital ecosystem is largely inaccessible.
Speaker:And so when you are the accessibility specialist
Speaker:at a company, you don't just do one job,
Speaker:you really are trying to advocate and evangelize
Speaker:accessibility throughout the company in that role.
Speaker:And so that's a lot of what I did too,
Speaker:because you can only do so much research
Speaker:with an inaccessible product.
Speaker:So first, sometimes we have to address
Speaker:the basic accessibility of say,
Speaker:the product we want to research in order to then do
Speaker:the main gig that I was hired to do.
Speaker:And can I say one thing as well,
Speaker:just in case folks are listening,
Speaker:they may hear me toggle between people with disabilities
Speaker:and disabled identity first and people first,
Speaker:just know that I'm aware that there are opinions on both.
Speaker:And so that's almost why I go between both in terms of
Speaker:whether it's people first or identity first.
Speaker:I try to honor the viewpoints of anyone's way of addressing
Speaker:themselves, and I hope that using one or the other
Speaker:is not necessarily offensive,
Speaker:but rather trying to acknowledge that there are,
Speaker:at least right now, currently two ways to do that,
Speaker:that are equally valid in their intentions
Speaker:and in their implementations
Speaker:and in people's feelings about them
Speaker:so that's why I tend to toggle between the two.
Speaker:- Well, thanks for that clarification.
Speaker:I think we tend to be in a community that is very receptive
Speaker:to anyone involved in moving things forward.
Speaker:And I think that's always the, you know,
Speaker:the biggest banner or emblem we can have is that
Speaker:we're showing in our work that we're actively contributing
Speaker:to having a more inclusive world for our products
Speaker:and services.
Speaker:- Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker:It's not even the language,
Speaker:the language wouldn't matter if we actually had the access.
Speaker:So yeah, that's the most important.
Speaker:- So that brought you into, you mentioned your work
Speaker:with Intel and Pearson providing accessibility expertise
Speaker:in those areas.
Speaker:How did that differ from the work that you'd done earlier on
Speaker:a consulting basis?
Speaker:Were there some similarities or new challenges
Speaker:in taking that on?
Speaker:- Interesting, so when working, for instance,
Speaker:at what's again now known as Level Access,
Speaker:in some ways people are coming to you
Speaker:to ask about accessibility
Speaker:so you don't have to make as much of a case.
Speaker:However, they're not still always concerned
Speaker:about accessibility.
Speaker:Sometimes they just want to be able to sell, you know,
Speaker:this is a box they have to check to sell
Speaker:versus if you're coming in as an accessibility specialist
Speaker:to a company that doesn't focus on accessibility,
Speaker:sometimes you end up having to start to make the case first
Speaker:and then you are able to really implement the work
Speaker:that you do so different skill sets,
Speaker:but all of it is still,
Speaker:and the word that I always am mindful to bring up
Speaker:is ableism.
Speaker:All of it still goes back to the unfortunate fact
Speaker:that in society we have this devaluing
Speaker:of disabled bodies, right, or disabled minds
Speaker:and so we don't see disability, you know,
Speaker:there's Alice Wong's book, "Disability Invisibility."
Speaker:And so this idea of invisibility of disability
Speaker:still creeps in no matter whether you're at a firm
Speaker:that's doing accessibility work or not,
Speaker:you still come up against these challenges of making people
Speaker:even see disability, see accessibility,
Speaker:and then implementing the work and educating around that.
Speaker:So different but very similar still.
Speaker:- Well, so we've come through a lot of different parts
Speaker:of your career and now you have
Speaker:your own consulting organization, you know,
Speaker:what are some of the things,
Speaker:looking back that you maybe you've seen
Speaker:where you'd wish possibly the accessibility community
Speaker:had made larger strides or maybe there are things
Speaker:you're exceptionally proud and excited about.
Speaker:Or maybe just things in your own work that you're looking
Speaker:forward to, what's the future thoughts look like for you?
Speaker:- Awesome, so I'll toggle between all of those.
Speaker:So what I see is, at least for now,
Speaker:finally at least a more talk about the,
Speaker:even the word accessibility, you know,
Speaker:was a mystery up until a few years ago.
Speaker:So even though WCAG came out 20 years ago,
Speaker:we're finally at a point where people even know the name,
Speaker:the word, and they understand that it doesn't just mean,
Speaker:you know, I can access this on the train or on a tablet,
Speaker:right, they know it has to do with disability.
Speaker:So I'm excited about more people knowing more.
Speaker:I think it was Matt May had a thought that I had as well,
Speaker:which is we need a lot of people knowing
Speaker:at least a little bit.
Speaker:And I think we're close to a lot of people
Speaker:knowing just a little bit.
Speaker:My concern has always been that accessibility specialists
Speaker:sometimes talk amongst themselves a little too much
Speaker:and talk in a lingo amongst themselves
Speaker:that doesn't always invite other people in.
Speaker:So there's a lot of people that, for instance,
Speaker:are critical of how people program,
Speaker:how people are engaging in technology.
Speaker:But then sometimes we have a habit of, you know,
Speaker:being so upset that we don't then reach out.
Speaker:And so that's part of what I try to do
Speaker:when I say making accessibility work,
Speaker:I wanna make it such that it's not just
Speaker:that accessibility specialists are these knighted, you know,
Speaker:like special group, it's more like everyone knows the basics
Speaker:and then specialists do the hard stuff 'cause
Speaker:we have a hard time getting to the hard stuff
Speaker:because we're still teaching everyone the basics.
Speaker:So I wanna make sure that it's clear even if you make a
Speaker:mistake, we're not gonna blast you.
Speaker:You know, we wanna just continue to encourage you
Speaker:so that everyone can just ingrain the basics into it.
Speaker:Then we can start getting to solving
Speaker:some of these other problems.
Speaker:But that's because everyone else's brain power will be in it
Speaker:too and we can collectively get there.
Speaker:So I'm both encouraged but also I still hope
Speaker:that we're allowing people to join us in this journey.
Speaker:Those of us that have been focused on it,
Speaker:I hope that we're able to bring more people on board.
Speaker:And so I see, and I also am encouraged by, the group
Speaker:that's doing XR access,
Speaker:the trying to establish accessibility
Speaker:at the beginning of AR and VR, these new technologies
Speaker:because we know that's where it starts.
Speaker:The standards and the creation of the foundation
Speaker:of these technologies,
Speaker:they often start without accessibility built in
Speaker:and then we're always adding accessibility later.
Speaker:So it'll be wonderful if a new technology
Speaker:started accessible for once and that could be the way
Speaker:that we just do things going forward.
Speaker:- I'm sure there that you keep busy on a regular basis,
Speaker:but are there any particular new projects or technologies
Speaker:or techniques that you're personally entrusted
Speaker:in exploring and learning more about?
Speaker:- It's funny, I almost need to narrow down my focus,
Speaker:I realize,
Speaker:because it sounds like accessibility is a specialty,
Speaker:but then there's specialties within the specialty
Speaker:and I do find that sometimes you can't,
Speaker:you can't learn it all.
Speaker:So I think that I've at least decided
Speaker:to somewhat lean more industry because I feel like,
Speaker:again, there's a opportunity to make sure
Speaker:that the technology people are using even right now is,
Speaker:you know, we need that right now to be accessible
Speaker:because technology's too pervasive not to.
Speaker:So I'm encouraged by just anything that, any kind of tools,
Speaker:and I'm not talking about overlays like accessiBe,
Speaker:but any other tools that will help make accessibility
Speaker:part of the design and development process
Speaker:for the tools that we create now.
Speaker:I'm also still very passionate about research
Speaker:because we say, for instance, bring in disabled users,
Speaker:you know, and get their opinions
Speaker:but there's something to doing that correctly, right?
Speaker:Again, if you're not familiar with disability,
Speaker:if you're not familiar with assistive technology,
Speaker:I've seen people come in and not even understand
Speaker:what was going on.
Speaker:Like you did all this to recruit someone,
Speaker:they sit down to use, say magnification or screen reader
Speaker:or voice control
Speaker:and the person's just sitting there like, you know,
Speaker:they're just amazed at the computer
Speaker:is talking in a different way,
Speaker:let alone understanding what's going on.
Speaker:So I still think there's a lot of education to come,
Speaker:but I'm excited about the opportunities to do that.
Speaker:Online courses, all these other mechanisms we have
Speaker:to do that so and I'm gonna be putting my,
Speaker:I'll just say that I'll be putting my perspective
Speaker:into some of those resources soon and very soon.
Speaker:- Well, Michele, it's been a pleasure speaking to you today.
Speaker:I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to this
Speaker:and hopefully we'll meet up in the future
Speaker:at a physical conference.
Speaker:- Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker:Thank you so much for the opportunity
Speaker:and I hope this was insightful and encouraging
Speaker:and helpful to your viewers.
Speaker:- Thank you very much.
Speaker:Hey, we did it.
