Episode 8
Perspectives From a Lived Life of Overcoming Physical Challenges
Ricardo Rodriguez, independent Accessibility Consultant
Ricardo Rodriguez talks about the challenges of growing up with extreme visual, mobility and cognitive challenges. He describes how a support system helped him adjust to those challenges and made it possible to become a professional accessibility practitioner.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:the People Behind the Progress.
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,
Speaker:and as an accessibility professional myself,
Speaker:I find it very interesting as to how others
Speaker:have found their way into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now,
Speaker:and hear about their journey.
Speaker:All right, well,
Speaker:it's time to get started with our next episode
Speaker:as we meet practitioners
Speaker:working in the Accessibility area,
Speaker:and today I'm talking with Ricardo Rodriguez.
Speaker:Hello Ricardo.
Speaker:- Hello.
Speaker:- Hey, it's good to be having this conversation with you.
Speaker:I'm talking from my home office in Vashon Island,
Speaker:near Seattle.
Speaker:Where are you talking to us from?
Speaker:- Beautiful San Diego, California.
Speaker:- Well, it's like good to be able to work with you again.
Speaker:We've worked together in project activities at Blink.
Speaker:You've also attended the Convey UX conference in Seattle,
Speaker:and helped out with that,
Speaker:so I'm happy to have you as part of this activity.
Speaker:- I'm always happy to help.
Speaker:- Well, just to kinda recap some of the things
Speaker:that we've been involved with together,
Speaker:so there have been some projects that,
Speaker:that we've had including our work with NASA,
Speaker:where you've helped out by providing feedback
Speaker:in some of the things that we are doing in research design
Speaker:based on your own familiarity with accessibility.
Speaker:Do you wanna talk a little bit about that kind of work
Speaker:and how you approach it
Speaker:in your work as a freelance accessibility consultant?
Speaker:- Sure, I'd be happy to.
Speaker:So, for me, the main project is always
Speaker:trying to figure out what are the needs
Speaker:that the project is trying to accomplish,
Speaker:and what are areas that need to be improved upon
Speaker:when it comes to accessibility?
Speaker:'Cause one of the things that I've always noticed myself,
Speaker:whether it's in projects,
Speaker:or just learning about things,
Speaker:is that when things are designed,
Speaker:or projects are designed,
Speaker:they're not always designed with accessibility in mind.
Speaker:And that's not really the issue
Speaker:of the designers or developers,
Speaker:it's mainly that they don't have the experience
Speaker:in that field.
Speaker:So a lot of things that are issues
Speaker:don't really register right away.
Speaker:So looking at it from the perspective of someone
Speaker:who has specific challenges or specific needs,
Speaker:you're able to see what are some areas of improvement
Speaker:that other parties may not be able to,
Speaker:and you can help them on improving those areas.
Speaker:- Yeah.
Speaker:And your work's been really helpful
Speaker:and as some one that had physical challenges,
Speaker:that gives us remarkably useful insights into the,
Speaker:as we design and build out new products.
Speaker:Maybe we could kind of go back in time,
Speaker:and you could share with us a little bit
Speaker:about your story of how you've gotten to this point.
Speaker:- Sure.
Speaker:So, for me, I was always a bit of a challenge.
Speaker:I grew up in the late 90's,
Speaker:limited access to the internet
Speaker:until the early 2000s,
Speaker:so it wasn't easy finding resources
Speaker:to be able to get help for certain challenges
Speaker:that you may have compared to,
Speaker:compared to the ease of access we have now.
Speaker:So for me it was always a challenge
Speaker:finding the resources to do well in school
Speaker:with my mobility impairments
Speaker:or my vision or my motor skills,
Speaker:especially my cognitive challenges
Speaker:were always difficult to find resources,
Speaker:'cause you weren't as connected back then
Speaker:as you are now.
Speaker:So for me it always strove to instill a need
Speaker:of what are the resources that I can get locally?
Speaker:What can I find that's gonna be able
Speaker:to make this easy for me as opposed to struggle
Speaker:because I don't have access to the resources,
Speaker:or the knowledge on where to go.
Speaker:Nowadays it's a lot more complex
Speaker:just because of the fact that you have
Speaker:a lot of products that are being developed,
Speaker:but without the understanding of certain challenges, right?
Speaker:But there is still a move to be able to learn
Speaker:what are the gaps that a product is needing,
Speaker:and who can we reach out to
Speaker:to kind of fill in those gaps?
Speaker:And doing that sort of work has always
Speaker:been something that I've always enjoyed,
Speaker:just because it helps create an awareness
Speaker:of what the issue is,
Speaker:and it makes things more inclusive.
Speaker:- Well, I, working you with you today,
Speaker:it's almost hard for me to understand
Speaker:how you were able to overcome so much
Speaker:because you really had those multiple challenges
Speaker:that you had to deal with,
Speaker:and you mentioned them with the visual impairment,
Speaker:also mobility,
Speaker:and then some cognitive challenges.
Speaker:Maybe you could talk a little bit more about that
Speaker:and what types of things you worked through in your own life
Speaker:to be able to adjust to it,
Speaker:and get to where you are today?
Speaker:- Sure.
Speaker:So, as I mentioned,
Speaker:I was born in the late 90's,
Speaker:with limited access to resources.
Speaker:Basically I was born essentially five months premature,
Speaker:so I didn't develop as well as one normally does.
Speaker:So the diagnosis at the time was
Speaker:I had cereal palsy, ADHD, limited vision,
Speaker:and I was also slightly retarded,
Speaker:as the term used to be called.
Speaker:So because of that I was always severely delayed.
Speaker:I couldn't do things that a normal three year old do, right?
Speaker:I wasn't cognitive of what was happening around me
Speaker:because of my severe delays.
Speaker:I was just aware that I was looking at things,
Speaker:but I didn't actively register
Speaker:what it was that I was looking at,
Speaker:or what it was that was happening to me.
Speaker:Once I got older, I was still 11 years old
Speaker:with the mentality of a three year old.
Speaker:So my brain hadn't caught up yet with the fact that
Speaker:hey, I'm 11 now,
Speaker:I can now register what's happening.
Speaker:It wasn't until I started getting some support
Speaker:that slowly but surely,
Speaker:as technology and access to resources
Speaker:and knowledge started coming out,
Speaker:I started to develop little by little
Speaker:with a good support system,
Speaker:I started to be able to, for example,
Speaker:learn how to read,
Speaker:learn how to pronunciate my letters,
Speaker:which you do at a very early age.
Speaker:By the time you're four
Speaker:most children are already able to speak,
Speaker:and have somewhat understandable conversations.
Speaker:And here I was starting to just barely do my ABCs.
Speaker:So it was a lot of work
Speaker:to be able to kind of get to the point of where I'm at now,
Speaker:where I can go ahead,
Speaker:and I can travel
Speaker:and attend events and do community sponsored things.
Speaker:There are some challenges that remain, obviously,
Speaker:some things that I'll never be able to do.
Speaker:I'll never be able to drive, for example, given my vision,
Speaker:but getting from point A to point B
Speaker:isn't necessarily a challenge anymore
Speaker:as long as I do it with safety in mind,
Speaker:I can't be going out
Speaker:and traveling at like nine p.m. at night
Speaker:because of my vision,
Speaker:but everything else we've developed as a society
Speaker:to a point where I can do a lot of the things
Speaker:that I need to now
Speaker:because of the level of technology
Speaker:and access we have now
Speaker:that just really wouldn't be possible
Speaker:in the early 90's when I was growing up.
Speaker:- Well, I wanna come back
Speaker:and dig into how we work to improve our digital products
Speaker:and services with respect to those physical challenges.
Speaker:But maybe for the next piece
Speaker:you could talk a little bit about
Speaker:how you started to become interested in accessibility
Speaker:as a professional practice.
Speaker:When did you start thinking about it as something
Speaker:that you might want to commit more of
Speaker:your regular work life to?
Speaker:- So for me, one of the things that,
Speaker:one of the very first projects that I actually took on
Speaker:before my current job is
Speaker:I was working for a nonprofit called
Speaker:The San Diego Futures Foundation,
Speaker:and they doing a training program
Speaker:specifically for disabled youth.
Speaker:And it's something that I had never actually considered
Speaker:just being of a disabled background myself.
Speaker:What are the challenges that people with disabilities
Speaker:have with gaining employment?
Speaker:So one of the things that I had to do from that perspective
Speaker:is how do we make the hiring process
Speaker:or the interview process more accessible to these youth?
Speaker:How do we make the curriculum
Speaker:that they're gonna be going through,
Speaker:and the interview process more accessible to them?
Speaker:And it's something that really got me into looking at
Speaker:these are the things that we have to ask.
Speaker:What accommodations do they need?
Speaker:How can we make it easier for them
Speaker:to be able to integrate into the workforce?
Speaker:And it's something that at the time
Speaker:I never really expected I'd be doing later on,
Speaker:as I got older,
Speaker:and developed more into a consultant,
Speaker:because the lessons I learned there
Speaker:really branched out and helped me look at it
Speaker:from a wider perspective of this,
Speaker:how it affects this particular field,
Speaker:but what about other products and services?
Speaker:How does it affect kiosks, for example?
Speaker:How does it affect people that are designing buildings?
Speaker:Do they design things that are wide enough
Speaker:for a wheelchair to fit through?
Speaker:Or do they not really think of that
Speaker:from an accessible standpoint,
Speaker:because they only think about a regular person
Speaker:when they're designing these living quarters?
Speaker:- Well, one of the reasons
Speaker:that I've been doing these interviews
Speaker:is to help people who are new
Speaker:to learning about accessibility realize that
Speaker:we all have different journeys that take us
Speaker:into specializing in that.
Speaker:Was there a time when you realized that
Speaker:there are actually people working in accessibility,
Speaker:where it was their regular full-time job
Speaker:to be trying to improve things?
Speaker:- For me, one of the first times
Speaker:I actually learned about that
Speaker:was actually at the Blink UX concert, conference,
Speaker:that I went to, what was it, two years ago?
Speaker:Basically, because it was something that
Speaker:I had never been to a conference like that before.
Speaker:I've been to other conferences for other things,
Speaker:but never for one that was specifically geared
Speaker:towards accessibility,
Speaker:and just creating that awareness of it.
Speaker:And it was the first time
Speaker:where I'd been in a location
Speaker:surrounded by other people
Speaker:with similar interests where it's like
Speaker:hey, we're all here talking about the same thing,
Speaker:we're covering different aspects of it,
Speaker:and we just wanna share ideas
Speaker:and share resources on how to make products
Speaker:across a wide variety of areas
Speaker:more inclusive in their design,
Speaker:and we're doing that by including people
Speaker:who are subject matter experts
Speaker:because they are familiar with accessibility,
Speaker:whether it's from a lived perspective like my own,
Speaker:or whether it's because they learned about accessibility
Speaker:and now they are doing it professionally,
Speaker:and they are really, really interested in doing it
Speaker:not just because it looks good,
Speaker:but because it creates a more inclusive product
Speaker:that everyone can access.
Speaker:- Well, your lived experience
Speaker:is certainly something that is valuable
Speaker:as we look to designing new products and services.
Speaker:Maybe let's dig into the specific physical challenges,
Speaker:and kind of go one by one,
Speaker:and you could talk about
Speaker:what issues that you've encountered in your own life,
Speaker:and then what types of things
Speaker:you carry over into your analysis.
Speaker:And so one of those would be your visual impairment.
Speaker:So, kind of what's your lived experience for that,
Speaker:and how do you approach it
Speaker:when you're helping out as a consultant?
Speaker:- So for me, with my visual impairment,
Speaker:my thing basically is I am extremely nearsighted.
Speaker:It also just limits my ability to be able to see things.
Speaker:So for me, anything that I do,
Speaker:any document that I have to read
Speaker:has to either have the ability to be zoomed in
Speaker:so I can read it bigger,
Speaker:or I have to have the ability to just change the font
Speaker:so I can read it without straining myself.
Speaker:So the first thing that I look at
Speaker:when I'm looking at a product,
Speaker:it doesn't really matter if it's software
Speaker:or a game or anything like that,
Speaker:anything that has basically written dialogue is for me,
Speaker:font size.
Speaker:Is the font size something that I can change
Speaker:or that I can look at?
Speaker:The second aspect of it is
Speaker:does it have a good color contrast?
Speaker:Am I able to read it properly,
Speaker:or do I have to take great pains,
Speaker:like copying it into something else
Speaker:to be able to legibly read it
Speaker:because the background and the font
Speaker:really just don't match,
Speaker:and I have to strain my vision
Speaker:to be able to read it.
Speaker:Anything like that is just a big challenge for me.
Speaker:Virtually, nowadays, most locations,
Speaker:or most avenues have really good color contrast.
Speaker:You do run into the one off product that
Speaker:may have the terrible color contrast
Speaker:that just needs improvement,
Speaker:but most of the time I've seen,
Speaker:at least the color contrast is good.
Speaker:The main thing that I usually have to worry about
Speaker:is the really small font
Speaker:that they decided to implement,
Speaker:or when they try to be fancy,
Speaker:like oh we're gonna use this cursive font
Speaker:that most people can't read anymore,
Speaker:'cause they don't teach it,
Speaker:that's very difficult for people like me to be able to read
Speaker:because not only in some cases
Speaker:have you just forgotten it,
Speaker:in most cases it's just so small
Speaker:that even if you tried to actually
Speaker:increase the font size it really wouldn't help.
Speaker:- Well, one of the things that we do
Speaker:as accessibility professionals is try to
Speaker:make our team members understand that there,
Speaker:there are so many assistive devices that are out there
Speaker:that can help physical challenges,
Speaker:but it requires that,
Speaker:that you're not doing things that in the,
Speaker:in the software that prevents you
Speaker:from being able to make the necessary adjustments
Speaker:with your assistive devices.
Speaker:- Yep.
Speaker:No that's,
Speaker:and that's always something that
Speaker:it goes back to being able to design things in a way
Speaker:where it's open for other people.
Speaker:One thing that I've noticed
Speaker:is just the fact that in certain cases, basically,
Speaker:just that lack of knowledge
Speaker:can inadvertently create barriers,
Speaker:but the willingness to learn
Speaker:how to design things better
Speaker:is always gonna be an asset,
Speaker:because then you understand,
Speaker:okay, instead of implementing
Speaker:this nice looking cursive font,
Speaker:instead I'll do something else
Speaker:that's more easy to read for everyone else.
Speaker:It might not look as fancy,
Speaker:but ultimately if it improves the people's ability
Speaker:to be able to use it and read it,
Speaker:that should be the end goal,
Speaker:as opposed to let's make this look all nice and fancy
Speaker:even if some people are not able to read it.
Speaker:- And another physical challenge is mobility.
Speaker:So maybe talk a little bit about your experience with that,
Speaker:with digital products
Speaker:and how you comment on that as a consultant.
Speaker:- So, for me, the main mobility aspect that I have
Speaker:is mainly just essentially motor skills.
Speaker:When I was growing up,
Speaker:I did have significantly more,
Speaker:but now it's limited to motor skills.
Speaker:So if I'm going ahead
Speaker:and I'm a KIOS for example,
Speaker:or a machine, one of those regular ATMs,
Speaker:or just a regular machine,
Speaker:the main thing for me has always been an issue
Speaker:of not requiring you to do rapid movements
Speaker:essentially right away,
Speaker:because for me it takes time for me
Speaker:to be able to grab something
Speaker:and orient things a certain way.
Speaker:Video games are basically a good example,
Speaker:where they have certain actions you have to take,
Speaker:and you have to do them very, very rapidly.
Speaker:For me, those are very difficult to do,
Speaker:just because the fact that it takes me awhile
Speaker:to be able to do things using a controller
Speaker:or a handheld or anything like that.
Speaker:So really rapid responses are something where
Speaker:it's just exceedingly difficult to perform,
Speaker:because of how the product was designed,
Speaker:where they're asking you to do a specific move set
Speaker:in a very rapid fire method.
Speaker:And it's, for me it's just creates a toll on me.
Speaker:- And then that kind of brings us
Speaker:to the third one I wanted to talk about,
Speaker:which is cognitive challenges,
Speaker:which for me is the area of accessibility
Speaker:where there's been the least amount of improvement overall.
Speaker:I think we pay a lot of attention to sight, mobility,
Speaker:and sound with closed captions,
Speaker:but with cognitive challenges
Speaker:I think that's an area that just a lot of organizations,
Speaker:even if they're involved in accessibility,
Speaker:aren't really sure how to, how to approach it.
Speaker:So maybe talk a little bit about
Speaker:your experiences in that area,
Speaker:and the challenges you encounter.
Speaker:- So for, me, one of the main challenges
Speaker:that I've always seen
Speaker:is that as a society as a whole
Speaker:we always wanna be able to see that we're smart, right?
Speaker:When we're designing products and service,
Speaker:we wanna be able to see
Speaker:that we are very smart,
Speaker:and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
Speaker:The main challenge when designing product
Speaker:or services though,
Speaker:specifically with cognitive challenges in mind,
Speaker:is the fact that it goes over so many heads
Speaker:that designing simple is best.
Speaker:Designing things in a way
Speaker:where you're describing things one step at a time,
Speaker:without using any excessive words,
Speaker:or terms that regular people who,
Speaker:or people who, for example,
Speaker:may not have gone to college are not gonna understand,
Speaker:is something that it's a simple concept,
Speaker:but it's not really implemented that often.
Speaker:And it's something that I've always seen,
Speaker:'cause people like myself who have cognitive challenges,
Speaker:and it's unusual because I work in tech,
Speaker:but it's because I have cognitive challenges
Speaker:that even working in tech
Speaker:I still design
Speaker:okay, we're gonna do this one step at a time.
Speaker:First we're gonna do this,
Speaker:and then this next step,
Speaker:and then this third step
Speaker:to finish up the project or whatever activity we're doing.
Speaker:And it's something that,
Speaker:what I've seen using certain products
Speaker:or services or websites, it's not done that way.
Speaker:They have an expectation where people
Speaker:are automatically gonna understand a certain set
Speaker:of complicated instructions without being told
Speaker:exactly what to do for step one
Speaker:or for step two or for step three.
Speaker:And the challenge with that is
Speaker:not only is it ignoring the fact that
Speaker:not everyone using that same product
Speaker:or service is gonna be at the same educational level,
Speaker:it's ignoring the fact that not everyone
Speaker:is gonna be at the same cognitive level as well.
Speaker:There are some people like myself would,
Speaker:can still be very high functioning,
Speaker:but we still need some sort of breakdown
Speaker:in terms of the steps to do a certain thing.
Speaker:Like a good example that I've always referenced basically
Speaker:is those Ikea catalogs,
Speaker:when you have to actually build something.
Speaker:All it is is just pictures.
Speaker:That doesn't tell me what I'm doing.
Speaker:Using that one as a good example,
Speaker:just looking at a reference point.
Speaker:Me being visually impaired,
Speaker:and just looking at this
Speaker:and not having any actual instructions,
Speaker:it is like the most challenging thing to do,
Speaker:because I'm not being told specifically what to do
Speaker:in step by step instruction.
Speaker:- And we're working on an article together related to this,
Speaker:and one of the things that you brought out in that
Speaker:is, for example, if you are filling out a form
Speaker:or working through a procedure
Speaker:is that your short term memory,
Speaker:it doesn't necessarily carry over too long so that
Speaker:even within individual steps
Speaker:it's useful for you to have,
Speaker:continue to have detail about what to do,
Speaker:and then what the next step is.
Speaker:- Exactly.
Speaker:Using just some forms that I've seen on the internet,
Speaker:for example, they'll have like, oh,
Speaker:please put in this information,
Speaker:and then at the bottom,
Speaker:when you're done with the information,
Speaker:it'll say this information will be used for this or that.
Speaker:And, for me, with my brain thinking
Speaker:is if you tell me why I need to put in this information
Speaker:at the very beginning,
Speaker:before I get to that information,
Speaker:as opposed to at the very end,
Speaker:because then if I'm forgetting why I'm putting it,
Speaker:I can just reference it at the very top,
Speaker:oh, this is why I'm doing it,
Speaker:and then just fill it out.
Speaker:And if I need to it's at the very top of the form,
Speaker:and it flows just a lot better.
Speaker:Whereas if the information's at the bottom,
Speaker:I would've forgotten why I'm putting it in.
Speaker:Oh, why is my name up here?
Speaker:I don't remember anymore,
Speaker:'cause I'm not being told
Speaker:exactly why I need to put it in in some cases.
Speaker:- Yeah.
Speaker:And in the article we get into hit lines that disappear
Speaker:and popups that may not persist.
Speaker:One of the other areas that you brought up
Speaker:was when, I think you referred to it as
Speaker:just too many things going on
Speaker:or a really busy screen,
Speaker:and that focus can be an issue.
Speaker:- Yep, definitely.
Speaker:'Cause for me, nowadays it's not as bad
Speaker:as when I was younger,
Speaker:but I still suffer somewhat from my ADHD challenges
Speaker:where it's like
Speaker:if I'm reading an article where if there's too much
Speaker:I kind of have to break it down into sections,
Speaker:but if I see an ad or something,
Speaker:or a banner just pops up,
Speaker:my intention is immediately diverted to that.
Speaker:And I'll forget where I was.
Speaker:What was I reading?
Speaker:What column was I on?
Speaker:What was I trying to do?
Speaker:Because it just diverts so much from what I was doing,
Speaker:and it just creates a challenge
Speaker:in being able to finish whatever article
Speaker:or activity I was trying to do.
Speaker:- Well, I think everyone
Speaker:will find this information very helpful,
Speaker:and I think our article have a lot of good info as well.
Speaker:For you, just looking ahead,
Speaker:what types of things are you working on?
Speaker:What are you looking forward to
Speaker:in the next part of your career?
Speaker:- So for right now I'm still freelancing basically.
Speaker:I am currently gonna be in the process of mentoring
Speaker:some people on accessibility with a new volunteer group
Speaker:that just opened up.
Speaker:In the long term I do plan on
Speaker:being able to land an official accessibility job
Speaker:down the line,
Speaker:just because that is something that for me
Speaker:is always near dear to my heart.
Speaker:It's not something where it would just be a job,
Speaker:but something where I can help make products more accessible
Speaker:for a wide variety of people
Speaker:would be just the end goal for me long term.
Speaker:- All right, well great.
Speaker:Ricardo, it's been great talking with you,
Speaker:thank you for sharing your ideas.
Speaker:It's also been good to work with you,
Speaker:and I look forward to doing that some more,
Speaker:and I hope we can get together at some point
Speaker:at a physical event again in the future.
Speaker:- Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:It's always happy to.
Speaker:I was hopeful to lend a hand,
Speaker:so we'll have to see when that is.
Speaker:- All right, thanks a lot.
