Episode 5
Passion about Mobile Devices as the Key to Greater Independence
Kisiah Timmons, Yahoo, Principal Technical Program Manager
Kisiah talks about going blind right after finishing college and the significant challenges of gaining employment at that time. She describes her work to improve support for assistive technologies in a variety mobile devices, tablets, and the associated apps.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(suspenseful music)
Speaker:- Hello.
Speaker:This is Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:the people behind the progress.
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,
Speaker:and as an accessibility professional myself,
Speaker:I find it very interesting
Speaker:as to how others have found their way into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now
Speaker:And hear about their journey.
Speaker:All right, well we're ready to go with this interview today.
Speaker:I'm pleased to have with me to Kisiah Timmons.
Speaker:Hello Kisiah, how are you today?
Speaker:- I'm doing well.
Speaker:- I'm glad to have you as part of this podcast, video cast,
Speaker:where are you talking to us from today?
Speaker:- The Washington DC area.
Speaker:All right, well, I'm three hours time zone difference
Speaker:in the Seattle area on my home office in Vashon Island.
Speaker:Well, I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me
Speaker:and talk about your experiences in accessibility.
Speaker:You know, why don't we start by just talking about
Speaker:a little bit about
Speaker:what you're involved with right now.
Speaker:- Currently I'm a principal technical program manager
Speaker:with Yahoo.
Speaker:My main priority is to manage
Speaker:different engineering projects,
Speaker:focusing on those products that are consumer facing
Speaker:and that we're shipping releasing you know, out the door.
Speaker:However, as a part of my current position as a TPM,
Speaker:I also manage a Yahoo's company-wide
Speaker:accessibility remediation program.
Speaker:- Yeah, and that was how I think I you know,
Speaker:first became familiar with your work.
Speaker:And so this conversation series is all about helping people
Speaker:see how others have found their way
Speaker:into supporting accessibility.
Speaker:So why don't we just go back in time and maybe
Speaker:you could kind of give us a little background of
Speaker:you know, how accessibility came into your life.
Speaker:Then we can just kind of move back up until today.
Speaker:- Sure thing.
Speaker:That's the neat thing about the accessibility field
Speaker:is that everyone has a different story to tell.
Speaker:And my story is that I basically came
Speaker:into accessibility the hard way.
Speaker:I lost the majority of my vision within two years
Speaker:of graduating with an engineering degree.
Speaker:I was working in the consulting field at the time
Speaker:for a multinational consulting firm
Speaker:you know, experienced vision loss,
Speaker:and then all of a sudden my world ended.
Speaker:I was told that no one would hire a blind engineer,
Speaker:and I ended up losing my job.
Speaker:I worked, went through all the processes with
Speaker:you know, state department of labor,
Speaker:vocational rehabilitation.
Speaker:Fortunately, I had a got sent in a counselor
Speaker:who believed that I was better than my circumstance.
Speaker:He believed in me.
Speaker:And he gave me every tool, every opportunity,
Speaker:every training that, you know, he could afford
Speaker:with his state budget to get me back on track,
Speaker:give me all this technologies that I need.
Speaker:Because at the time you know,
Speaker:it was kind of rare for someone you know,
Speaker:at my stature having work as an engineer, losing their job,
Speaker:you know, and so he really saw the daylight.
Speaker:He saw the daylight before I did.
Speaker:And there were supporting people around him that kept
Speaker:messaging me and telling me
Speaker:even though I lost that position,
Speaker:even though you know, some people said
Speaker:that I would never have gainful employment again,
Speaker:that those same engineering skills that I developed
Speaker:over the course of many years, even pre-dating college,
Speaker:it's still very useful in you know,
Speaker:regaining my career because as an engineer,
Speaker:we're taught to solve problems.
Speaker:And so for me,
Speaker:I had to shift my thinking a bit,
Speaker:and thinking of it as an engineering problem
Speaker:that needed to be solved.
Speaker:So I mastered my assistive technologies
Speaker:and within you know, two years of that
Speaker:you know, I ended up going back to work, was hired,
Speaker:doing the same type of engineering assistance analyst work
Speaker:for another multinational consulting firm.
Speaker:And at that point it was very interesting
Speaker:because their systems were more complex
Speaker:than at the consulting firm where I was laid off from.
Speaker:And they told me that could do the work.
Speaker:The difference this time is that I've developed
Speaker:you know, a core skillset with my assistant technologies.
Speaker:I had it mastered where I became you know,
Speaker:my own tech support.
Speaker:Whereas before I was relying on you know,
Speaker:state technologists and you know, company IT personnel.
Speaker:I kept my mouth shut because I was determined.
Speaker:I said I'm not gonna lose another job.
Speaker:So there were barriers that I faced software wise,
Speaker:but you know, I created scripts in myself,
Speaker:You know, I'm a big fan of JAWS
Speaker:and that's what I used at the time.
Speaker:I created my own scripts to help fix accessibility issues
Speaker:that I encountered.
Speaker:Didn't tell my manager, didn't tell anyone,
Speaker:I just did it because I needed to get the job done.
Speaker:And I was determined not to lose another job.
Speaker:So that was kind of like my entry point
Speaker:in to accessibility is that I came in it the hard way.
Speaker:And I came in at a time
Speaker:when there really was no accessibility.
Speaker:I mean this was 20 years ago,
Speaker:no accessibility field.
Speaker:The only person I had to rely on really was myself.
Speaker:And you know, some people you know,
Speaker:that I've met along the way during VocRehab
Speaker:that told me that I was better than my circumstance.
Speaker:- Well, I mean it's really great to hear your story,
Speaker:starting with such a you know, a scary health pivot
Speaker:in your life early on
Speaker:as you're just ready to begin your career,
Speaker:and then the challenges that were,
Speaker:that were there with technology,
Speaker:and just people's understanding of all of our abilities,
Speaker:you know, despite physical challenges.
Speaker:So it's really exciting to you know,
Speaker:see how things have gone for you over the years.
Speaker:You did mention a assistive technologies
Speaker:you know, a number of times,
Speaker:and I think a lot of people
Speaker:are just exploring accessibility,
Speaker:you know, may not understand how important it is
Speaker:to be able to, for our digital products and services,
Speaker:to be able to fully support those assistive devices.
Speaker:And it sounds like you had a lot of that hard work early on
Speaker:when it wasn't built in,
Speaker:but how have you seen things improve in that area
Speaker:over the past 20 years?
Speaker:- Oh, wow.
Speaker:It's been a dramatic shift in syncing,
Speaker:because at that time, no one you know,
Speaker:in corporate America specifically,
Speaker:no one really knew what assistive technology was,
Speaker:no one really had experience
Speaker:dealing with people with disabilities.
Speaker:And then if they did,
Speaker:there were times you know, that they took away negativity.
Speaker:And that was the first case that played a huge role
Speaker:when I lost my job with my initial vision loss
Speaker:was because you know, I remember someone saying
Speaker:well, you know, don't you need one of those loud, noisy,
Speaker:you know, braille printers
Speaker:that's gonna take up too much office space.
Speaker:And you know, they're just trying
Speaker:to draw on every negative experience, right.
Speaker:But in my mastering assistant technologies
Speaker:and the availability of them over time,
Speaker:and even you know, becoming mainstream
Speaker:has really helped change the perceptions.
Speaker:For example, you know, I can remember going to a conference
Speaker:in the early 2000s, down at Georgia Tech,
Speaker:and you know, wearable computing was something
Speaker:that was you know, developed for people
Speaker:with physical disabilities, right.
Speaker:Now you have all types of fitness watches.
Speaker:Right, you know, and they're accessible, right?
Speaker:So allow the technology speech recognitions.
Speaker:You know, you think about what Amazon has done
Speaker:with echo and Alexa, right?
Speaker:You know, the initial influences on those sorts of products,
Speaker:you know, it was because of people
Speaker:with disabilities had hardships,
Speaker:but now they're becoming more mainstream.
Speaker:I remember when Windows PCs
Speaker:did not come with a built-in screen reader.
Speaker:Now we have Narrator.
Speaker:And I think, you know,
Speaker:the key with assisted technologies,
Speaker:number one is that they've gotten more affordable,
Speaker:because when I first lost my vision,
Speaker:everything had to be paid you know, by your counselor,
Speaker:by your VocRehab.
Speaker:It was extremely expensive.
Speaker:Right, you know, to start off you know,
Speaker:getting you know, different types
Speaker:of assistance technologies.
Speaker:Braille displays were just you know,
Speaker:they were super expensive now,
Speaker:they're still expensive now,
Speaker:but they've come down, you know, dramatically.
Speaker:So over time,
Speaker:the good thing about assistance technologies
Speaker:as they've been, become embraced by mainstream society,
Speaker:you know, we have economies of scale
Speaker:and prices have come down to make it more affordable,
Speaker:meaning that it's easily accessible to people
Speaker:to help bridge you know, that quality of life, right.
Speaker:To help make sure that we have an equal quality of life
Speaker:for people with disabilities and people without.
Speaker:- Well, what you've talked about so far
Speaker:is just just your own need
Speaker:to be able to overcome physical challenges,
Speaker:to participate as an engineer in the corporate workplace.
Speaker:And with a lot of hard work, you're able to do that,
Speaker:but then you took the next step,
Speaker:which is to become actively involved as a practitioner
Speaker:to improve the accessibility space.
Speaker:So what was the next step?
Speaker:How did you move into becoming actively involved
Speaker:in improving accessibility?
Speaker:- That's a good question.
Speaker:So working in a consulting realm,
Speaker:you know, I was involved in accessibility
Speaker:on the behalf of myself,
Speaker:and back in like the mid 2000s
Speaker:you know, it was at the height of the Iraq war,
Speaker:and I had the opportunity to join
Speaker:the department of veterans affairs in Atlanta.
Speaker:And the focus there was trying to help rehabilitate
Speaker:blind and aging veterans.
Speaker:At that time, you know, it was one of those things.
Speaker:It was kind of a crossroads for me.
Speaker:And always fortunate to have people in my life
Speaker:that have you know, advised me over time.
Speaker:And the notion was you know,
Speaker:Kisiah it's time for you to come use your skills
Speaker:for the benefit of others.
Speaker:Hey, it's good.
Speaker:You've got it nailed for yourself, right?
Speaker:You're taking care of yourself,
Speaker:but the same type of skills that you used to overcome,
Speaker:the same type of skills you used
Speaker:to succeed in the workplace,
Speaker:those are the same skills that are needed
Speaker:to help better the lives of others.
Speaker:And at that time, that was an important thing for me.
Speaker:I have to tell you, it wasn't you know,
Speaker:leaving that job at the consulting firm,
Speaker:that was the most difficult job to leave.
Speaker:Because there, you know, I was one person,
Speaker:one blind person with a white cane coming into work,
Speaker:taking two trains, get on the show to get there.
Speaker:I never knew the effect that I had
Speaker:on people who just saw me around the office
Speaker:until they found that I was leaving.
Speaker:And that was the biggest lesson learned for me
Speaker:was that they noticed me when you know,
Speaker:I really didn't see them looking, right.
Speaker:I didn't, but that experience, it was tough.
Speaker:I liked what I was doing,
Speaker:it was challenging,
Speaker:and I had a good rapport with my colleagues,
Speaker:and you know, people across the company
Speaker:who value what I did
Speaker:because I was able to help people internally
Speaker:advocate for their accommodations.
Speaker:So it was very gratifying,
Speaker:but at the same time you know,
Speaker:I'm just still an engineer at the core, right.
Speaker:And being able to look at other types of technology
Speaker:like emerging technologies, innovations, things like that,
Speaker:indoor way finding systems, smartphones,
Speaker:it really, really piqued my interest.
Speaker:And so ultimately I ended up leaving
Speaker:and joining the department of veterans affairs
Speaker:as a biomedical engineer in a research capacity.
Speaker:So helping to create and develop different prototypes
Speaker:to help support the needs of aging veterans,
Speaker:and those who were experiencing vision loss.
Speaker:- And then just from you know, what I know
Speaker:from your background, from your profile you know,
Speaker:then that led you into even further work,
Speaker:developing solutions for digital products and services
Speaker:that others that others are using.
Speaker:So maybe tell me a little bit about that next chapter
Speaker:in your journey.
Speaker:- Yeah, so when I was at the VA,
Speaker:I really started to get very enthused about smartphones,
Speaker:computing devices, mobile computing devices, okay.
Speaker:And these, because I thought they were just super neat.
Speaker:They're incredible, but I couldn't use them.
Speaker:I could not use right, the iPhone when it originally came,
Speaker:because it did not have the accessibility suite.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:At that time I was using like one of the you know,
Speaker:it was like a Motorola phone.
Speaker:It was a windows based operating system.
Speaker:And you know, I had the buy Mobile Speak
Speaker:to add on to that, right.
Speaker:Just to be able to use you know, a phone.
Speaker:But there it was, I had a really incredible opportunity.
Speaker:It was a kind of a passion of mine.
Speaker:I wrote the proposal for it,
Speaker:pitched it to my team, they bought in,
Speaker:because I wanted the VA to fund a study on smartphones.
Speaker:Because I'm thinking like this is the way of the future.
Speaker:Like if we can get these smartphones into veteran's hands,
Speaker:you know, they'll just open up a whole world for them.
Speaker:And then especially if we can you know,
Speaker:advocate for making them more accessible.
Speaker:Fortunately, you know, the VA,
Speaker:they bought into it and they gave us a huge grant.
Speaker:And there, I mean, that was something
Speaker:that was very transformative for me.
Speaker:That's when my passion for smartphones and tablets,
Speaker:mobile computing devices, that's when it really took off.
Speaker:Right, because you know, before then,
Speaker:you know, everything was what you call adaptive, right.
Speaker:Adaptive, meaning they put a product out there, right.
Speaker:And then they thought about
Speaker:well, you know, now we'll slap something on top of it,
Speaker:then make it accessible to people with disabilities.
Speaker:Well, that's you know, nowadays
Speaker:we're talking assistance, right.
Speaker:We're talking product inclusion.
Speaker:Where now, you know, companies, product teams
Speaker:are thinking about those things
Speaker:when they release the initial product,
Speaker:and that's made a world of experience.
Speaker:So just within the past, I would say 10-15 years,
Speaker:it's been incredible,
Speaker:but it was my work at the VA
Speaker:that really just kind of made me more passionate
Speaker:about mobile computing devices, smartphones,
Speaker:and the apps that drive them.
Speaker:Because for me, that was,
Speaker:I saw that as the key of my mobility,
Speaker:and to greater independence.
Speaker:- If you're able to talk about it,
Speaker:what were some of the things that you felt
Speaker:were important areas that you moved forward in
Speaker:as you started working with mobile devices,
Speaker:and making that more accessible.
Speaker:- It, had to do,
Speaker:and I'm grateful for Apple
Speaker:because they set this incredible standard.
Speaker:I can't remember which version of the iPhone
Speaker:first had voiceover,
Speaker:but that was just an incredible milestone.
Speaker:Because that, when that happened,
Speaker:you know, that drove market pressure.
Speaker:It wasn't overnight.
Speaker:Right, but other phone manufacturers,
Speaker:they started to take stock into it.
Speaker:So very early in the game, you know,
Speaker:especially for people with vision loss, you know,
Speaker:you couldn't go wrong with an Apple product.
Speaker:Right, and that's you know, to this day, I love my iPhone.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:You know, because for people with disabilities,
Speaker:like if you get to us first,
Speaker:like we have incredible brand loyalty, right.
Speaker:They were the first that opened that door.
Speaker:And so my biggest issue was that at the time,
Speaker:and this was you know, 2010, 2011,
Speaker:somewhere around there.
Speaker:At the same time, I said
Speaker:well, you know, yes, it's great, right,
Speaker:that we ourselves, you know, have this phone, right.
Speaker:But at the same time as a consumer,
Speaker:I don't want to be held to one model.
Speaker:Right, I should have options to choose
Speaker:like anyone else, right.
Speaker:I should have other options out there.
Speaker:And so I was really glad, you know,
Speaker:that Google stepped up with Android,
Speaker:and started to make Android,
Speaker:an accessibility suite for Android to make those phones,
Speaker:Android based devices accessible,
Speaker:included an accessibility suite there.
Speaker:And that opened up a lot of doors.
Speaker:So for me, I really got involved in those,
Speaker:in like the mobile computing devices
Speaker:to the point where I own both.
Speaker:I own iOS devices, I own Android devices.
Speaker:I like the compare and contrast.
Speaker:I like you know, different things that I could do
Speaker:with some you know, Android devices
Speaker:that I couldn't do with an Apple one.
Speaker:I could tinker around more with the Android device.
Speaker:So, I mean, so it's just,
Speaker:it was something that was incredible,
Speaker:but it was a huge milestone starting off with Apple.
Speaker:And then we started to have other companies
Speaker:start to adopt the accessibility suite.
Speaker:It was very important you know,
Speaker:because therein lies that equal access to technology.
Speaker:You know, especially because you know, with given choice,
Speaker:you have different price points.
Speaker:At that time, you know, Apple didn't have
Speaker:a lower cost model.
Speaker:Android provided those options.
Speaker:So worldwide, you have more people you know,
Speaker:who could probably afford the Android system
Speaker:if it was accessible than Apple.
Speaker:So it's just one of those things
Speaker:that looking at it in hindsight,
Speaker:the market adopted the change,
Speaker:and they adopted to change
Speaker:because they started to value people with disabilities.
Speaker:It's not all about you know,
Speaker:legislation and laws and lawsuits.
Speaker:Yeah, that played a role into it too.
Speaker:But once companies and company executives
Speaker:start to understand and really realize
Speaker:that if you build an accessible and usable product
Speaker:for all people, it's good for the business.
Speaker:It's good for the brand, right.
Speaker:It's good for the consumer.
Speaker:And it ends up improving usability for all people, right?
Speaker:For people that don't even think of themselves
Speaker:as having a disability, namely aging seniors, right.
Speaker:They experience vision loss due to just natural changes
Speaker:in age, right, with age.
Speaker:They don't consider themselves, right,
Speaker:someone with a disability,
Speaker:but they rely on those technologies as well.
Speaker:So it's been a great journey,
Speaker:not to say that everything is perfect,
Speaker:but just within the past 20 years,
Speaker:since I first lost my vision,
Speaker:the accessibility field has grown by leaps and bounds.
Speaker:And it was because of those,
Speaker:and I really believe it's because of those,
Speaker:of companies starting to make their products,
Speaker:accessible products more mainstream.
Speaker:Where that accessibility feel really starting
Speaker:to take off and say, you know what,
Speaker:if we're gonna focus on being inclusive and fully inclusive
Speaker:to our digital products,
Speaker:we need to get the experts in here to help us along the way,
Speaker:not slapping another software on top of it,
Speaker:when it's already out the door.
Speaker:We need to appreciate and implement the inclusive approach
Speaker:to product development.
Speaker:And that's where accessibility professionals
Speaker:really fit in.
Speaker:- Well, I know you're moving into some new challenges
Speaker:in your work life,
Speaker:but also you're a certified professional through the IAAP.
Speaker:So I always like to call that out too,
Speaker:as a you know, as a way for people to get
Speaker:just a little bit more involved in that becomes emblematic
Speaker:of a commitment,
Speaker:but as you move forward in your next part of your career,
Speaker:what are some of the things that you're hoping to see
Speaker:as developments in accessibility?
Speaker:- Well, hmm, that's a good question.
Speaker:I think we still need to be vigilant.
Speaker:Technology is a great thing.
Speaker:It improves my independence, my quality of life,
Speaker:but at the same time, you know, it takes off
Speaker:at such a rapid speed
Speaker:that the accessibility portion of it,
Speaker:sometimes you end up playing catch up.
Speaker:So there are technologies out there right now,
Speaker:AR, XR, you know, AI where, you know,
Speaker:we have think tanks, we have different groups
Speaker:are you know, trying to make best practices and standards
Speaker:on these things.
Speaker:But it's important for us to you know,
Speaker:to continue to pursue those companies
Speaker:on their putting out those products, right?
Speaker:Because of the fact that we don't want to get to a point
Speaker:where we're lagging behind significantly,
Speaker:because when we lag behind,
Speaker:as people with disabilities significantly,
Speaker:when it comes to new technologies,
Speaker:there is that the digital divide, right.
Speaker:That term, you don't really use it anymore because,
Speaker:you know, back in the day,
Speaker:digital divide had a lot to do with, you know,
Speaker:poverty and that sort of thing.
Speaker:But it has huge implications for people with disabilities.
Speaker:The digital divide you know, is when there's an inequity,
Speaker:when you have some group of people
Speaker:that can use a certain technology
Speaker:and others that are hard, right.
Speaker:So I think that's the challenge there
Speaker:is that we have to keep striving
Speaker:to catch up on with emerging technologies.
Speaker:The other thing that I'm super passionate about,
Speaker:and I don't think we've made as great a stride
Speaker:as I would have liked,
Speaker:is you know, accessibility with respect to higher education.
Speaker:So I got an MBA back in 2014 and you know,
Speaker:my school, Drexel University, they were just supportive.
Speaker:I got all of my books done you know,
Speaker:converted electronically.
Speaker:You know, my program director worked with my professors
Speaker:a quarter ahead to make sure she had all the textbooks.
Speaker:She had time to get them sent off,
Speaker:and you know, convert it to electronic format
Speaker:so that I could use them.
Speaker:I thought that my experience was like everyone else's
Speaker:until I started meeting others at conferences,
Speaker:and you know, people that had
Speaker:drastically different experiences than I did.
Speaker:And therein lies like you know,
Speaker:we've got to get better around that.
Speaker:Because the disparity amongst people with disabilities
Speaker:and gainful employment is extreme.
Speaker:And it's only gonna get worse with technologies
Speaker:you know, moving as fast of a pace as they are.
Speaker:It's up to higher, you know, higher ed institutions.
Speaker:They've got to get it together,
Speaker:because it still amazes me the number of young people
Speaker:that I hear that have been told what they cannot be.
Speaker:And we have to stop that.
Speaker:Or their counselor are not being supportive.
Speaker:Like we have to stop that.
Speaker:Or the stories about
Speaker:hey a kid can't get their accommodations
Speaker:you know, on campus.
Speaker:I'm like you've got to stop that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so that for me is an area where
Speaker:I don't think it's as much progress has been me
Speaker:as it should be.
Speaker:You know, people with disabilities cannot sustain
Speaker:and have a great quality of life, right,
Speaker:if they cannot be educated,
Speaker:if we can't enjoy education like everyone else.
Speaker:That, to me, that's a right.
Speaker:That's a fundamental right.
Speaker:If a kid with a disability wants to go to college
Speaker:and wants to become a programmer,
Speaker:they need to be supported.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Don't look at that kid and say well, you know,
Speaker:a lot of these students fail.
Speaker:Well, look at the reasons why they fail.
Speaker:The failure is not the kids.
Speaker:The failure, right, are on the counselors.
Speaker:The failures, right, are on the department
Speaker:of rehab services on the campus.
Speaker:That's where the failures are.
Speaker:The failures are with the professors, not the students.
Speaker:The students have no idea what course work
Speaker:is coming down the pipeline,
Speaker:or what types of labs are gonna,
Speaker:they don't know, right.
Speaker:That's when you have counselors,
Speaker:you have people there that's supposed to guide them.
Speaker:And that's, and I think that that is a fundamental challenge
Speaker:that we're gonna have to grapple with
Speaker:as an accessibility industry.
Speaker:So yeah, number one,
Speaker:you know, we have to keep on top
Speaker:and stay vigilant about emerging technologies,
Speaker:but we also cannot forget,
Speaker:like if we want to bridge the economic gap,
Speaker:if we want to increase the number of people
Speaker:with disabilities with gainful employment,
Speaker:we need to support them educationally.
Speaker:- Well, I think that's a great place for us to end this
Speaker:with those thoughtful comments about the challenges
Speaker:that you remain in front of us.
Speaker:And I think those are the two areas that you mentioned
Speaker:are definitely ones that you know,
Speaker:I'm gonna continue to think about.
Speaker:And you know, I'm sure those of us
Speaker:in the accessibility practice community
Speaker:will take it on as a challenge as well.
Speaker:But I want to thank you Kisiah for sharing your story
Speaker:and telling us about your journey,
Speaker:and hopefully you'll have great success
Speaker:in the next things that you're involved with.
Speaker:- Thank you so very much for your time.
Speaker:It's been wonderful talking with you.
Speaker:- Thanks a lot.
