Episode 1
Our Mission is to Create Equal Access to All of Our Digital Assets
Pat Kogos, U. of Chicago, Director, Digital Accessibility
Pat talks about her first work with accessibility as a college student and how she rediscovered it in her work as a writer. She describes how accessibility is supported in her current position as Director of Digital Accessibility at the University of Chicago.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:the People Behind the Progress.
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,
Speaker:and as an accessibility professional myself,
Speaker:I find it very interesting as to how others
Speaker:have found their way into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now
Speaker:and hear about their journey.
Speaker:(upbeat music)
Speaker:All right, well here we go with another one
Speaker:of these interviews about accessibility practitioners
Speaker:and how they found their way into this particular area.
Speaker:And today I am pleased be talking with Pat Kogos.
Speaker:Hello, Pat, how are you today?
Speaker:- I'm good, Joe, thanks. How are you?
Speaker:- Oh, I'm good. It's an incredibly rainy day
Speaker:in the Seattle area where I'm working from.
Speaker:Where are you talking to us from today?
Speaker:- I am coming to you from Chicago,
Speaker:where it is starting to be a little cool this time of year,
Speaker:but it's to be expected.
Speaker:Cool and clear.
Speaker:- Well, I always enjoy going there
Speaker:as I have my roots there and
Speaker:maybe we'll get together in person at some point,
Speaker:but let's talk about what you're up to.
Speaker:What are you currently involved in?
Speaker:- So currently I am the Director
Speaker:of Digital Accessibility at the University of Chicago.
Speaker:And I've been here since January of 2020.
Speaker:So it's been kind of a crazy ride
Speaker:because I was in the office for about five weeks
Speaker:before the pandemic hit.
Speaker:And then of course we all went home
Speaker:for a long period of time.
Speaker:So we were spinning up a new team at the time,
Speaker:the Center for Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:it was a brand new team.
Speaker:And so that's been kind of an interesting challenge
Speaker:to put all those things into place
Speaker:while we're all fully remote, but it worked really well.
Speaker:All the technologies, of course, are super helpful
Speaker:and we took use of all those
Speaker:and lots of other tools too, for our team to stay engaged.
Speaker:And so it's really been great, actually, a really nice time,
Speaker:a really important time to be in this field.
Speaker:- What's the mission
Speaker:for the Center for Digital Accessibility?
Speaker:- So our mission is to create equal access
Speaker:to all of our digital assets, for all people, all users.
Speaker:So we have, I think, a lot of work to do,
Speaker:as all large organizations do.
Speaker:So we're training people
Speaker:about the digital accessibility principles
Speaker:and the impact upon users.
Speaker:And we're helping everyone to understand
Speaker:how to create digital assets and how to maintain them.
Speaker:So there's, you know, a lot to be done, of course.
Speaker:- And does this cover the full breadth of the university?
Speaker:- Yes, it does, yeah.
Speaker:So we are the main digital accessibility team
Speaker:for the entire university, but we have,
Speaker:it's a distributed responsibility, though,
Speaker:because everyone who has a website
Speaker:is responsible for their own website.
Speaker:But helping people to understand
Speaker:how to make their own website more accessible
Speaker:is an important piece of the whole journey.
Speaker:So it's engaging users from across campus
Speaker:and that part of it's been really great and interesting.
Speaker:There's a lot of very committed people.
Speaker:Everyone's very invested in diversity,
Speaker:equity and inclusion here.
Speaker:So we're coming from a very strong point there.
Speaker:- Well, I wanna talk more about in detail
Speaker:about the things that you're doing with the center,
Speaker:but maybe we can go back in time a little bit first.
Speaker:I always like to learn how people found their way
Speaker:to where they are today in accessibility.
Speaker:So are there any, certain milestones,
Speaker:things that happened in your career
Speaker:that started to point you toward specializing in this area?
Speaker:- Yeah, so if you don't mind, if I go back really far,
Speaker:I can kinda give the whole path.
Speaker:So when I was in college,
Speaker:I was in a sorority called Delta Gamma,
Speaker:and our mission, our philanthropic mission,
Speaker:was sight conservation and aid to people who are blind,
Speaker:so Service for Sight, primarily.
Speaker:So that was something that was just introduced to me
Speaker:at a young age.
Speaker:I had not done any work in that field
Speaker:prior to being in college, but learned a lot about it then.
Speaker:And then as an alumnus of the group,
Speaker:participated in a lot of activities around that.
Speaker:So, vision screening children at a young age
Speaker:for, you know, to see if they have any early signs
Speaker:of vision impairments.
Speaker:And then we would refer them, of course,
Speaker:to trained doctors who would follow up.
Speaker:But you can do some interesting screenings
Speaker:at a young age with people who are trained
Speaker:in just a very simple way to catch early signs.
Speaker:So I did that.
Speaker:And then continued to sort of go along that path.
Speaker:There is a center in St. Louis called
Speaker:the Delta Gamma Center for Children with Visual Impairments,
Speaker:and I became very involved with that organization as well.
Speaker:We were raising funds to create a new building
Speaker:and make it fully accessible
Speaker:for all the children and their families,
Speaker:and also create an accessible playground.
Speaker:There were lots of components to that.
Speaker:So it just continued to be part of my avocation in life
Speaker:was this Service for Sight aspect of things.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:- Let me just dig into that a little bit more.
Speaker:You know, going back,
Speaker:you mentioned Delta Gamma was where things started out.
Speaker:I did some community service in college
Speaker:but I also feel like I was half a knucklehead at the time.
Speaker:But it sounds like, you know
Speaker:enough things were done there that really, you know,
Speaker:kind of got you motivated to continue there.
Speaker:So like, what was that experience like?
Speaker:And then how did you make the jump
Speaker:to doing it after college?
Speaker:- Yeah, so what we would do at the time,
Speaker:and I'm sure things have evolved over time,
Speaker:but we had fundraising events and whatnot
Speaker:to raise money for Service for Sight.
Speaker:We also had some of our students
Speaker:who were in our sorority who were, for instance,
Speaker:reading newspapers.
Speaker:At the time you would read the newspapers on the radio,
Speaker:there's a blind radio station in New Orleans,
Speaker:which is where I went to college.
Speaker:I went to Loyola University in New Orleans.
Speaker:At the time they had a blind radio station,
Speaker:which I'm not sure if it's still in existence or not.
Speaker:So some of the members of our group
Speaker:would read for the blind radio station.
Speaker:We also could type in books
Speaker:which would be converted into braille.
Speaker:So there were a number of ways we could participate in that.
Speaker:But yeah, it's not as robust as your experience
Speaker:as an adult outside of college, because, as you said,
Speaker:in college we have lots of distractions.
Speaker:And so I did become more active
Speaker:after I graduated and became an alumnus.
Speaker:- And then as you started working with
Speaker:those organizations after college,
Speaker:then kinda what was the next step in the path after that?
Speaker:- So some of what I did at the Delta Gamma center
Speaker:just helped inform me about the various barriers
Speaker:for people who have disabilities,
Speaker:including people who have visual impairments.
Speaker:So that was just really a learning time for me.
Speaker:I learned a lot.
Speaker:I think, you know, I could be helpful in some ways,
Speaker:but they were also super helpful to me
Speaker:just to help understand.
Speaker:And the kids are fantastic.
Speaker:The center supports all kids.
Speaker:Their main mission is birth through age three,
Speaker:but then they continue to support them
Speaker:in social groups after that,
Speaker:because that's one of the challenges for that group
Speaker:is to have a social peer group
Speaker:that's a comfortable place for them to be.
Speaker:So anyway, I learned a lot about them,
Speaker:learned how wonderful and brilliant they all are,
Speaker:and how we could support them
Speaker:by just removing barriers, physically, for instance,
Speaker:as I talked about with the playground,
Speaker:and then as I got older and realized
Speaker:that there were also digital barriers,
Speaker:it was a real life-changer for me.
Speaker:I didn't know that. And I was in IT. (chuckles)
Speaker:So I felt like, I couldn't believe
Speaker:I had spent the first let's say 15 years of my career in IT,
Speaker:and also running this parallel part of my life,
Speaker:which was service to people
Speaker:in the visually impaired community.
Speaker:And I never knew that there was an intersection.
Speaker:So when I, at one point in my IT career,
Speaker:I didn't know like what I wanted to do next in IT.
Speaker:I was just looking for another path.
Speaker:So I went back to school and got a master's in writing.
Speaker:And then I went to,
Speaker:I was hired by Washington University in St. Louis
Speaker:to be a publications editor.
Speaker:So a completely different thing for me.
Speaker:Left IT, per se, to do some editing,
Speaker:but I ended up editing an online periodical
Speaker:that then I was introduced
Speaker:to this aspect of digital accessibility.
Speaker:And I was just blown away. (laughing)
Speaker:Again, as I said, I had no idea.
Speaker:And I was, it was a light bulb.
Speaker:So I just dug into it and I just wanted to learn more.
Speaker:I became very energized by it.
Speaker:I wanted to be able to make a change,
Speaker:you know, make some difference in that field.
Speaker:So I just kept asking at Wash U
Speaker:questions about digital accessibility
Speaker:to anybody who I thought could give me answers.
Speaker:And then eventually, they said,
Speaker:"Hey, will you run our user group?"
Speaker:"Will you co-chair our user group for web accessibility?"
Speaker:And I was thrilled to do so.
Speaker:So then I continued to dig in even more because, of course,
Speaker:when someone asks you to co-chair something like that,
Speaker:the first thing I say is,
Speaker:"Do I really have the skills for this?"
Speaker:"Am I gonna be able to give in a meaningful way to this?"
Speaker:"Or am I just gonna go show up?"
Speaker:So I really continued to dig in
Speaker:and just learn as much as I could.
Speaker:I went to WebAIM, to their training in Logan, Utah,
Speaker:which is, first of all, a beautiful setting,
Speaker:second of all, they're a fantastic organization.
Speaker:And did my accessibility,
Speaker:my initial accessibility formalized training out there.
Speaker:So that was great for me
Speaker:to have that sort of formal approach to it.
Speaker:Because, again,
Speaker:I had just been digging into it myself for so long.
Speaker:That it was,
Speaker:- Well, that's a common inflection point and experience
Speaker:for people as they get into accessibility.
Speaker:A lot of times, it comes to a time
Speaker:when you're doing work and you're made aware of it.
Speaker:And then suddenly you're trying to identify resources
Speaker:and you're looking for
Speaker:people that can help you move forward.
Speaker:But accessibility is like, there's so many parts to it,
Speaker:with digital accessibility,
Speaker:there's just so many things, potentially,
Speaker:that you can learn
Speaker:that I think it often overwhelms people
Speaker:like at the start as well,
Speaker:you know, "How can I ever deal with this?"
Speaker:And when we lock into just, all right,
Speaker:I'm gonna work on this part, and then that part,
Speaker:I think it's a lot easier.
Speaker:But it's great that you were able to, you know,
Speaker:get involved in some formal training early on.
Speaker:I think that's, you know,
Speaker:something that can benefit everyone
Speaker:that's just starting to get into it.
Speaker:- Yeah, I think you're so right, Joe.
Speaker:it's very intimidating for people.
Speaker:When they first hear about it and first learn about it
Speaker:there's an overwhelming amount of information out there.
Speaker:And I'm always learning.
Speaker:I feel like I'm always still learning something new.
Speaker:So just coming to terms with that,
Speaker:that they'll never be a point when I'll know everything,
Speaker:which is great for someone
Speaker:who loves to be a lifelong learner, as I do.
Speaker:And also it's okay for everyone to come into this
Speaker:and just get started.
Speaker:Because no one,
Speaker:I wouldn't say no one,
Speaker:but most people never know everything about it.
Speaker:It's really a vast field.
Speaker:- And so then continuing to move along,
Speaker:what was the next area you ended up getting involved with?
Speaker:- Yeah, so after I did my formal training at WebAIM,
Speaker:and continued to do the user group at Wash U,
Speaker:I started looking for an opportunity
Speaker:where it was a part of my job at Wash U,
Speaker:but I really wanted it to be all of my job. (chuckles)
Speaker:So I just felt very driven to move
Speaker:into digital accessibility as a job position,
Speaker:you know, as a role.
Speaker:So I just started looking.
Speaker:The University of Chicago is, of course,
Speaker:a fantastic university.
Speaker:They were at the time looking for someone
Speaker:to create this role at the university,
Speaker:Director of Digital Accessibility,
Speaker:and to help start up the new organization,
Speaker:the Center for Digital Accessibility.
Speaker:It was a great challenge.
Speaker:And I'm very pleased
Speaker:that they felt I was up to the challenge.
Speaker:- Well, I do teaching at the University of Washington.
Speaker:And so, you know, we do get,
Speaker:we do get information about accessibility
Speaker:and with the Canvas learning system,
Speaker:it flags slides and documents and things
Speaker:that may not be accessible,
Speaker:but I think,
Speaker:but I'm a person who's familiar with accessibility
Speaker:in a lot of detail, so sometimes I wonder,
Speaker:you know, how well educational institutions
Speaker:are able to really, you know, get that information into,
Speaker:to the instructors and the curriculum,
Speaker:so that in fact, it really ends up
Speaker:being part of the classroom materials.
Speaker:- Yeah, so that's actually something
Speaker:that the University of Chicago thought of
Speaker:when they were creating this CDA, our team,
Speaker:is that they placed us
Speaker:within the academic technology solutions team,
Speaker:in IT services, in central IT,
Speaker:so that our academic technology solutions team
Speaker:has our instructional designers in it.
Speaker:We already spent a lot of time
Speaker:working with instructors, doing workshops
Speaker:on a variety of learning with technology subjects.
Speaker:So it was a perfect touch point.
Speaker:So we have someone on the academic technology team
Speaker:who's the lead, go-between,
Speaker:between our team and the instructors,
Speaker:so that we can have a good access point for that,
Speaker:because that is really important.
Speaker:And it's challenging.
Speaker:There's lots and lots of university content.
Speaker:There are lots of websites, lots of PDFs,
Speaker:lots of information, as you said,
Speaker:we use Canvas for our LMS.
Speaker:So there are various touch points
Speaker:where we have to make a difference in all of them.
Speaker:So just getting people educated across campus
Speaker:is a big thing,
Speaker:so that everyone can start to understand
Speaker:what accessibility means
Speaker:and what it looks like in a digital space.
Speaker:We spend a lot of time in that area.
Speaker:- And so, you know,
Speaker:as you work through things at the center today,
Speaker:are there any particular projects
Speaker:that are taking up your a lot of your time,
Speaker:or, you know, or on the other way of looking at it,
Speaker:kinda what's a day in the life
Speaker:and the types of things involved in building your program?
Speaker:- One of the things that was just big for all of us
Speaker:is that the university created
Speaker:a digital accessibility policy
Speaker:and communicated it out early this year.
Speaker:It was January of 2021.
Speaker:They had intended on doing it last year,
Speaker:is my understanding, but the pandemic, of course,
Speaker:threw everyone's plans for a loop.
Speaker:So it was communicated out the beginning of this year.
Speaker:And then we've really spent a lot of time, as I said,
Speaker:trying to help everyone understand
Speaker:what does it mean to be accessible.
Speaker:So there are guidelines to follow, of course.
Speaker:But really what you wanna make sure you're understanding
Speaker:is the impact upon the user,
Speaker:because it's really all about
Speaker:embracing people with disabilities
Speaker:and not putting barriers in their way.
Speaker:So, you know, just the educational piece of it, as I said,
Speaker:is really huge for us right now.
Speaker:We're also working on having some enterprise applications
Speaker:available to help people with these things,
Speaker:accessibility checkers and whatnot.
Speaker:So there's lots to be done, of course,
Speaker:and we're just attacking it, you know,
Speaker:at all levels, our procurement of accessible products,
Speaker:just making sure that what we're
Speaker:procuring is the most accessible product in the space.
Speaker:And that's also extremely challenging,
Speaker:hoping that vendors really will address that
Speaker:in their products because sometimes
Speaker:it's extremely challenging to find something that's
Speaker:very accessible in the vended product world.
Speaker:- Yeah, that was something I wanted to ask you about,
Speaker:just generally the process involved there,
Speaker:certainly, you know, if the products that the university
Speaker:is purchasing, you know, aren't accessible,
Speaker:obviously that, that creates a huge problem.
Speaker:And there are, of course,
Speaker:requirements about that in terms of purchasing,
Speaker:but what's the actual process like
Speaker:when you're investigating things, I imagine it can
Speaker:it can be hard to vet certain products
Speaker:and get the right answers, and then really know
Speaker:whether that's gonna work in a practical manner
Speaker:once things are instituted for the students.
Speaker:- Yeah, it is very challenging.
Speaker:And we have some processes in place at the university
Speaker:where we, you know, hoping to get the most accessible thing.
Speaker:But as I've said, I'm really hoping that vendors
Speaker:will turn their attention to this
Speaker:because everyone who's procuring the product
Speaker:shouldn't be all having to test this vended product.
Speaker:The vendors really can make the most impact here
Speaker:because some vendors have a really large presence,
Speaker:not just in the higher ed world,
Speaker:but, you know, across other domains as well.
Speaker:And if the vendors make their product accessible
Speaker:that would be a lot less work for us.
Speaker:But yeah, we have processes in place
Speaker:to hopefully choose the most accessible products we can.
Speaker:- And as we finish up here, are there any things,
Speaker:you know, looking to the future,
Speaker:any plans that you have for the center,
Speaker:that the university has,
Speaker:of, you know, maybe where certain goals they wanna achieve
Speaker:in like five years or ten years?
Speaker:I know universities tend to have a lot of,
Speaker:have to have a lot of long term plans for things.
Speaker:- Yeah, so we are looking at our capability maturity model
Speaker:of where we are as an organization right now
Speaker:with digital accessibility and planning.
Speaker:First of all we're gonna assess
Speaker:where we are in the model this year.
Speaker:And then hopefully from that
Speaker:have some strategic plan that comes out of that.
Speaker:But yeah, we definitely have five-year goals out there.
Speaker:One of the things I'd really like to do
Speaker:is broaden the ability for my team, which is a small team,
Speaker:we have four people, is use, you know, employ somehow
Speaker:people with disabilities to involve in our testing.
Speaker:Right now we, as a team, are testing
Speaker:using screen readers, using keyboard-only,
Speaker:using automated tools,
Speaker:but we would really like to find
Speaker:a good way to utilize these people
Speaker:who use screen readers in a native way.
Speaker:So that will be definitely one of the things
Speaker:we'll be addressing probably in the next year.
Speaker:And I would really welcome that.
Speaker:I think having some input
Speaker:from users with disabilities would be fantastic.
Speaker:- Well, that's great.
Speaker:And it was great to have this conversation with you, Pat.
Speaker:Thanks for taking the time
Speaker:to share your journey in accessibility,
Speaker:and hopefully things will ease up with the pandemic
Speaker:and you're able to get back into
Speaker:that rather impressive urban campus that you have there.
Speaker:- Thank you.
Speaker:Yep, looking forward to the return to campus.
Speaker:People are learning back there right now,
Speaker:and our team will be migrating back there soon, yeah.
Speaker:- All right. Great. Thanks so much, Pat, bye-bye!
