Episode 8
Our Idea Is to Get Everyone Knowledgeable About Accessibility
Ian Kersey, Thomson Reuters, Senior Accessibility Specialist
Ian Kersey supports the designers in customer-facing products at Thomson Reuters. That includes adding annotations to Figma prototypes and making sure developers have everything they need. Starting in an accessibility office at a community college, Ian continued his career with accessibility consulting, including working at Level Access.
Mentioned in this episode:
Info about Accessibility at Blink
Transcript
(bright upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hello, this is "Digital Accessibility:
Speaker:The People Behind the Progress".
Speaker:I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series.
Speaker:And as an accessibility professional myself,
Speaker:I find it very interesting
Speaker:as to how others have found their way into this profession.
Speaker:So let's meet one of those people right now
Speaker:and hear about their journey.
Speaker:(bright upbeat music continues)
Speaker:All right, well, here we go
Speaker:with another episode where I have the great opportunity
Speaker:to meet another accessibility practitioner
Speaker:and find out a little bit about them.
Speaker:And today I'm meeting with Ian Kersey.
Speaker:Hello Ian, how are you today?
Speaker:- Hey, good. How are you, Joe?
Speaker:- Everything's going well.
Speaker:And as mostly usual, I'm at my home office on Vashon Island,
Speaker:which is near Blink's Seattle headquarters.
Speaker:Where are you talking to us from?
Speaker:- I'm actually in Kansas City, Missouri.
Speaker:So yeah, the heartland, I suppose.
Speaker:(Ian chuckling)
Speaker:- Right, is that where you're based at?
Speaker:- Yeah, I'm actually fully remote right now,
Speaker:but I actually just moved here
Speaker:about a year ago from the West Coast.
Speaker:So I was in Oregon for a long time.
Speaker:So I'm familiar with Seattle.
Speaker:- All right, great.
Speaker:My wife and I spent a lot of time on the Oregon coast.
Speaker:At the start of this year, we made made three trips
Speaker:and kind of worked our way through all of it.
Speaker:So it's a great state with a lot of cool stuff to see.
Speaker:- Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:I really love the coast there, yeah.
Speaker:- Well, talk to me a little bit
Speaker:about what you're up to right now.
Speaker:That's always a good place to start.
Speaker:- Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:Well, right now I'm a senior accessibility specialist
Speaker:at Thompson Reuters.
Speaker:And before I get going, I also wanna mention that,
Speaker:you know, everything I say here today
Speaker:are my opinions, are my own,
Speaker:and don't reflect Thompson Reuters.
Speaker:So just put that out there.
Speaker:Yeah, but I do a lot of,
Speaker:so yeah, I do a lot of stuff.
Speaker:What I do there is, we're really in a point
Speaker:where we're shifting left pretty hard at Thompson Reuters.
Speaker:So, you know, I interact with pretty much everybody,
Speaker:you know, from designers to developers.
Speaker:So I'm involved in kind of the life cycle of a product.
Speaker:Yeah, we have a lot of products there that are...
Speaker:Of course there's, most people are familiar
Speaker:with the Reuters news service,
Speaker:that's a part of Thompson Reuters.
Speaker:But we also have a bunch of law programs
Speaker:and stuff like that too.
Speaker:So software that lawyers use and things like that.
Speaker:So some really kind of interesting,
Speaker:some interesting stuff to work on.
Speaker:Mainly what I focus on is the customer facing
Speaker:side of kind of Thompson Reuters,
Speaker:so, of some of the products there.
Speaker:- Well, I'm sure you have a lot
Speaker:of different things going on,
Speaker:but kind what's a day in the life
Speaker:or a week in the work life like for you?
Speaker:Are there any particular things that are always going on
Speaker:or any particular tasks that are critical
Speaker:to what you're involved in?
Speaker:- Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:So, you know, we do work, Agile, so we work in sprints.
Speaker:And so, you know, depending on the cycle of the sprints,
Speaker:you know, I'll be working.
Speaker:So, like for this week, for instance,
Speaker:we're in a more design heavy sprint.
Speaker:And then after that ends, that work will go to development.
Speaker:So right now I'm just kind of hanging out with the designers
Speaker:as they're doing their work, kind of reviewing their work.
Speaker:I really am a part of the design process, it feels like.
Speaker:So, there's a lot of that going on.
Speaker:So this week is a lot of design stuff,
Speaker:which I love 'cause I also have a design background.
Speaker:So I really love getting in there
Speaker:and also just kind of being able
Speaker:to impart kind of some accessibility knowledge
Speaker:onto the designers too, which is really critical
Speaker:and that kind of shift left kind of mentality.
Speaker:And then, you know, as we do the development,
Speaker:there's kind of like the handoffs.
Speaker:So there's, you know, I'll meet with the developers
Speaker:and just tell them like, "Hey,"
Speaker:like, "here's what the designs are.
Speaker:Here's some concerns for accessibility."
Speaker:One thing I did just leave out there is annotations.
Speaker:So we do a lot of our work in Figma, the design work,
Speaker:and we'll actually go into Figma
Speaker:and make accessibility notations on those Figma files.
Speaker:So that's also a part I really enjoy.
Speaker:So by the time we hand off to dev,
Speaker:we just try to make sure that we've given the devs,
Speaker:you know, anything they can possibly have, right?
Speaker:To make their thing accessible.
Speaker:So all of our annotations link back
Speaker:to some acceptance criteria,
Speaker:which are pretty similar to,
Speaker:you know, it's the kind of thing
Speaker:where it's like we tell the developers
Speaker:how they should be coded accessibly
Speaker:and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker:So we have that repository as well.
Speaker:So we just try to give the devs all they need
Speaker:before they get coding.
Speaker:- How's it- - Then after that-
Speaker:- Oh, go ahead. - Oh, sorry.
Speaker:So after that, it's just kind of accessibility testing,
Speaker:logging bugs, if there are any bugs,
Speaker:and then reviewing those bugs with the developers.
Speaker:- How is accessibility set up generally
Speaker:in your organizations?
Speaker:You mentioned the things that you do.
Speaker:Are you or your colleagues tied to certain products
Speaker:or parts of the organization
Speaker:or is it more of across the spectrum
Speaker:and you provide support in different areas?
Speaker:- Yeah, it's kind of, you know,
Speaker:it's kind of all the above, right?
Speaker:Like we do have, I'm in a group
Speaker:that is tied to a certain specific
Speaker:kind of umbrella of products, right?
Speaker:So, and we have, we call them pods,
Speaker:but they're just kind of little,
Speaker:well, they're not little, but they're groupings, right.
Speaker:So we do have work that is tied
Speaker:to specific pods and products.
Speaker:There's also a team that is focused on,
Speaker:like, say like the Reuters website
Speaker:or other kind of work that's going around.
Speaker:So we do have like some accessibility specialists
Speaker:that are kind of floating around, right.
Speaker:Just kind of picking up whatever work is out there.
Speaker:It's just such a large company.
Speaker:We have so many products
Speaker:that it's really just kind of, yeah, so.
Speaker:- Well, for anybody that's heard any of our episodes,
Speaker:one of the things I always like to get into
Speaker:is hear about the path that people took
Speaker:to get where they are today in accessibility.
Speaker:And so, to start with you,
Speaker:where were some of your first exposures
Speaker:to something that maybe started
Speaker:to lead you to professional interest in this area?
Speaker:- Yeah, so I, you know, in around,
Speaker:so I've been a web developer for about,
Speaker:I think, eight years now.
Speaker:I kind of dabbled in it, but I got really serious
Speaker:about it about eight years ago.
Speaker:And then kind of a couple years into that,
Speaker:I decided to go back to college 'cause I never got a degree.
Speaker:So I decided like, "Hey, let's go do that."
Speaker:So when I did that,
Speaker:I went to a community college to start out.
Speaker:And while I was there, I was just looking
Speaker:for a part-time kind of job.
Speaker:And I got a job at the accessibility office
Speaker:at the community college.
Speaker:So there, I got to do a whole variety of things.
Speaker:You know, I got to do a lot of technical things.
Speaker:So I got to do stuff like, you know,
Speaker:textbook group, PDF remediation, you know,
Speaker:showing students how to use certain assistive technologies,
Speaker:like smart pens and stuff like that.
Speaker:So, you know, studying strategies and things like that.
Speaker:So a lot of work directly with students with disabilities.
Speaker:I also was in the classroom sometimes
Speaker:with some students just scribing, taking notes,
Speaker:maybe manipulating materials and stuff like that.
Speaker:So that was really kind of like,
Speaker:the eye opening experience for me, right?
Speaker:Like I've always had kind
Speaker:of a social justice activist streak in me,
Speaker:but I never really had focused on accessibility before
Speaker:or accommodations and things like that.
Speaker:So a lot of the stuff that,
Speaker:the barriers that I saw in the college setting
Speaker:really kind of opened my eyes.
Speaker:Like, wow, there's a lot of work here
Speaker:that needs to be done, right.
Speaker:There's a lot of inequities here
Speaker:that are built into the environment.
Speaker:And I would like to be a part of that,
Speaker:to, you know, be a part of the change
Speaker:to help clear those barriers in any way that I can.
Speaker:So that's kind of how I got started.
Speaker:I did that for a while.
Speaker:And then I got a job at a small company,
Speaker:a consulting accessibility company,
Speaker:so doing audits of websites and stuff like that,
Speaker:very similar to level access of a DQ.
Speaker:So I kind of started to cut my teeth on, testing there.
Speaker:And then eventually moved my way over to level access.
Speaker:And I was there for a while
Speaker:before coming to Thompson Reuters, so.
Speaker:- Well, you mentioned your work in academic institution.
Speaker:That's definitely a place
Speaker:where we've heard a lot of people had their start
Speaker:because there is so much accessibility needed
Speaker:and going on there.
Speaker:And then you also mentioned that you already had come in
Speaker:with some work experience in the coding area, I think.
Speaker:And so, yeah, that sounds
Speaker:like you were well placed to get going.
Speaker:I imagine when you moved from the academic
Speaker:to the consulting side, or maybe I should assume
Speaker:that it was a lot different,
Speaker:but, you know, what did you think about that experience?
Speaker:How did that fill out that next step in your career growth?
Speaker:- Yeah, you know, I liked it.
Speaker:I did, it really exercised my technical side, right?
Speaker:Like I was able to call,
Speaker:like call my development background a little bit more.
Speaker:And at that point too,
Speaker:when I had been doing web development before,
Speaker:I'd heard of ARIA and things like that, right?
Speaker:But I never really had used it a lot.
Speaker:So it's kind of that unfortunate thing about, you know,
Speaker:developers aren't really taught about accessibility
Speaker:when you learn about development, right.
Speaker:So I really sharpened my skills there
Speaker:and that was really cool.
Speaker:I loved just kind of, I mean, you know,
Speaker:that was when I kind of memorized WCAG
Speaker:and looked at all these other standards
Speaker:and got to learn how to, you know, code things
Speaker:in a way that would be accessible, so that was cool.
Speaker:I did really miss working with the students directly.
Speaker:That was kind of a thing that I really enjoyed doing,
Speaker:but, you know, it's interesting 'cause I was,
Speaker:instead of being directly with students
Speaker:and kind of, you know, working on accessibility
Speaker:directly with people, I was doing it for companies
Speaker:that would eventually make their products better,
Speaker:more accessible for people with disabilities.
Speaker:So at the end of the day,
Speaker:I felt like I was still doing the work that I wanted to do.
Speaker:It was still, you know, kind of that work,
Speaker:but it was just a little bit different.
Speaker:Yeah, and I think overall, you know, I liked consulting,
Speaker:but there was also a part of me that really,
Speaker:I like my position now because I'm at a company
Speaker:where I can see things through, right.
Speaker:I can kind of see the change happen.
Speaker:When you're consulting, it's kind of like,
Speaker:you get the work, you do it, you hand it back off, right.
Speaker:And that's fine, but you never really get
Speaker:to sit with that company
Speaker:and see the progress they've made, right, so.
Speaker:- Yeah, and so, when you're doing the consulting work,
Speaker:was there a certain part of the process
Speaker:you were involved in?
Speaker:Was it more on the, you know,
Speaker:checking in once things had been built
Speaker:and identifying issues
Speaker:or I believe you mentioned shift left early on,
Speaker:you know, the idea about getting involved
Speaker:in accessibility at the earliest stages
Speaker:of product development.
Speaker:So what was it like in your experience
Speaker:in the consulting area.
Speaker:Was it all over the place or was it more
Speaker:kind of end of the line versus the start?
Speaker:- Yeah, I would say, you know,
Speaker:that most of it was kind of like, unfortunately, you know,
Speaker:and yeah, it was like a lawsuit driven mostly, right.
Speaker:So people would come to us, they'd say like,
Speaker:"Hey, we got a demand letter, we gotta fix our stuff."
Speaker:That wasn't always the case.
Speaker:There were some places that some people that,
Speaker:some companies that I consulted with that were really,
Speaker:that weren't doing accessibility.
Speaker:They didn't have like an in-house team,
Speaker:so they would have us do it, right.
Speaker:So they were in the place
Speaker:where they were not just kind of combating
Speaker:that kind of swirl of just, you know, making stuff
Speaker:and then kind of trying to patch it up, right.
Speaker:But I would say that like, honestly,
Speaker:a lot of what I saw was, "We got a demand letter,
Speaker:we gotta fix this thing."
Speaker:And so that was challenging because, you know,
Speaker:those are valid points, but for me,
Speaker:the business case isn't why I'm in accessibility, right?
Speaker:Like I'm in accessibility to make things better for people.
Speaker:And I guess one could argue that lawsuits do
Speaker:maybe eventually make things more accessible,
Speaker:but culture wise, I think that really focusing
Speaker:on the people that you're affecting is the way to go.
Speaker:Yeah, so, yeah. - Yeah.
Speaker:So then what was the next stage after that?
Speaker:Where d'you start working with
Speaker:after that part of your career?
Speaker:- So I would say that at least
Speaker:when I got more towards the end of my consulting,
Speaker:which like around January of this year
Speaker:is when I hopped to Thompson Reuters.
Speaker:So about like the half, the last six months of that role,
Speaker:I was actually doing more of the leading clients
Speaker:in their accessibility efforts too.
Speaker:So it was less of the kind of heads down,
Speaker:just testing all the time to like,
Speaker:okay, we've got your reports,
Speaker:now let's figure out how we're gonna incorporate this
Speaker:into your workflow and stuff like that.
Speaker:Or just even prioritizing things with the company,
Speaker:meeting with stakeholders and sort of more of that,
Speaker:you know, not the human-focused side,
Speaker:but less of just the straight up testing
Speaker:and more of the kind of client stuff.
Speaker:But yeah, now I'm at Thompson Reuters,
Speaker:so it's definitely a completely different position.
Speaker:Like I almost don't do any testing anymore.
Speaker:Like I do do some testing, but we have, you know,
Speaker:we have a testing team that does that.
Speaker:So yeah, for me, it's mostly, a lot of design work,
Speaker:a lot of meeting with people kinda stuff.
Speaker:- Well it's so, I imagine,
Speaker:that since you're doing all the work
Speaker:that you already mentioned that you're doing there,
Speaker:that there's strong commitment
Speaker:from maybe the leading parts of the organization
Speaker:that have made that possible, is that the case?
Speaker:It sounds like you're well placed,
Speaker:they have the resources and things
Speaker:to bring it into all the different product groups.
Speaker:- Yeah, no, it really is.
Speaker:And that was kind of,
Speaker:that was why I was so excited about the position, you know.
Speaker:It's just, they really have a great commitment
Speaker:to accessibility and it, you know,
Speaker:and we do have a lot of resources for it.
Speaker:So it feels like a good place to be.
Speaker:I know a lot of companies have, you know,
Speaker:over the last year or so, they're starting
Speaker:to look for more accessibility professionals.
Speaker:And I think that that's great,
Speaker:but there are some job postings that I saw
Speaker:that I was kind of like, "Ooh, I'm not sure if..."
Speaker:You know, they might have one person
Speaker:or two people for a big company.
Speaker:And I'm like, I don't know, you know,
Speaker:that's gonna be rough, right?
Speaker:To put it nicely.
Speaker:But like, I do think that any commitment
Speaker:to accessibility is great,
Speaker:but the position I'm in right now is awesome
Speaker:to have a great team to work with and support.
Speaker:And also just other accessibility professionals
Speaker:you can just talk to, you know,
Speaker:because nothing's cut and dry
Speaker:with digital accessibility, right?
Speaker:Like, there's that old joke, but maybe not so old,
Speaker:but you can put five accessibility professionals in a room
Speaker:and ask them one question
Speaker:and you're gonna get 10 different answers
Speaker:for something, right?
Speaker:So it's just nice to bounce things off of people.
Speaker:And then also have people
Speaker:with different abilities on your team too.
Speaker:So you can really be like,
Speaker:I can be like, hey, like I know how
Speaker:to use a screen reader as a sighted person,
Speaker:but like, what is it really like for other people, right?
Speaker:And, you know, we also do like user testing
Speaker:and stuff like that,
Speaker:so that's also a great piece that I like,
Speaker:is actually going on to the users
Speaker:and seeing what their experience is
Speaker:and, you know, expanding from there, so.
Speaker:- Well, with a large organization like yours,
Speaker:with so many different things going on,
Speaker:how is it set up in terms of making sure
Speaker:that accessibility embeds itself
Speaker:throughout the organization?
Speaker:Are there certain, you know, standards,
Speaker:or levels for groups to get involved with it,
Speaker:or does each group kind of find their way with support
Speaker:from people like yourself, kind of how is that set up?
Speaker:- Yeah, so we really are, you know, trying to put,
Speaker:we're putting basically specialists like myself in every,
Speaker:trying to put them in every pod that's possible, right.
Speaker:And then in places where people kind of float around
Speaker:or maybe go from a different project to a different project,
Speaker:it's kind of like creating those connections, right.
Speaker:Creating those connections with design,
Speaker:with development, all the different teams,
Speaker:letting them know that you're here, right.
Speaker:And then, you know, from there,
Speaker:it's really going to all of the meetings,
Speaker:just getting into those meetings
Speaker:and saying, "Hey, everyone."
Speaker:Like, "I'm Ian, I'm here."
Speaker:Like, "This is what I do."
Speaker:And then over time, you know,
Speaker:you just build that relationship with those people
Speaker:and you show up at meetings,
Speaker:or you do reviews and stuff like that.
Speaker:And you really just become a part of that team.
Speaker:So there's a lot of education, you know,
Speaker:for teams that haven't worked with specialists before,
Speaker:have the specialists embedded in their team, you know.
Speaker:At first it's kind of like,
Speaker:people aren't really sure what your position is
Speaker:or what you're really doing there.
Speaker:Like, are you here just to review stuff?
Speaker:Like, you know, whatever.
Speaker:But really, it's about being part of that process.
Speaker:And what I've seen over the last six months is that,
Speaker:you know, now I'm embedded with my designers,
Speaker:I'm embedded with my developers.
Speaker:They don't think twice about reaching out to me
Speaker:in a process, a workflow process.
Speaker:I can always reach out to them.
Speaker:So yeah, that's really the idea, you know.
Speaker:And of course these things take time
Speaker:and, you know, with these kind of like shifts, right.
Speaker:Like, of getting people in there, but that's the idea,
Speaker:is just get us in everywhere we can.
Speaker:And along with that is the education piece as well.
Speaker:You know, I know some companies have kind of like,
Speaker:they have like accessibility champion kind of projects,
Speaker:which are great too, where you have like, maybe,
Speaker:you know, some developers that kind of are focused
Speaker:on doing accessibility for a couple months
Speaker:or they have weekly meetups and they talk about it, right,
Speaker:like accessibility is their sole focus,
Speaker:but they really do like get in there
Speaker:and try to champion accessibility.
Speaker:And, you know, I think we're doing a similar approach,
Speaker:but I'm doing that with everybody, right.
Speaker:Like our idea is to get everybody knowledgeable
Speaker:about accessibility, not just a few people.
Speaker:And there are also efforts
Speaker:from our internal communication and stuff like that
Speaker:like on how to create accessible documents, right.
Speaker:And stuff like that.
Speaker:So even maybe some of the people on the accounts side
Speaker:or on like other sides
Speaker:that aren't in the design side of the house,
Speaker:they also are getting communications
Speaker:about, you know, how to create accessible documents.
Speaker:And we do have, you know.
Speaker:Then also having like a, what do we call it?
Speaker:Just like a measurement, right?
Speaker:Like a measurement of the whole kind of,
Speaker:the accessibility health of the whole organization.
Speaker:But we're all striving to meet a certain goal there too.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:- Well, yeah, so you mentioned some of the things
Speaker:that you're working on right now, moving forward.
Speaker:And so, you know, one of the things I like to ask
Speaker:as well is just kind of looking ahead,
Speaker:if you have any thoughts, you know,
Speaker:a couple different ways, possibly you have some initiatives
Speaker:that you're excited about that you're able to discuss
Speaker:or possibly just things from your own career
Speaker:that you're kind of looking forward
Speaker:to maybe making some moves into areas
Speaker:that hadn't been possible in the past for whatever reason.
Speaker:Has anything come to mind in those areas?
Speaker:- Yeah, I have just recently gotten involved
Speaker:in the WCAG AG meetings.
Speaker:So I've been involved with Thompson Reuters
Speaker:in the WCAG meetings, which is like,
Speaker:it's almost like a dream, right, for me.
Speaker:It feels kind of surreal to be at a point
Speaker:where I'm actually in some of those meetings
Speaker:and talking about crafting Silver,
Speaker:like, you know, 3.0 and stuff like that.
Speaker:I'm still at that point
Speaker:where I'm just trying to absorb everything.
Speaker:So I just kind of go to the meetings
Speaker:and I'm like, okay, like, you know.
Speaker:But I'm really excited to just be a part
Speaker:of that whole process.
Speaker:And another thing I would like to kind of do
Speaker:that I've been thinking about personally
Speaker:is just kind of trying to find more bodies of research
Speaker:that kind of drive some design decisions
Speaker:that are more linked to accessibility.
Speaker:You know, there's like, I don't know if you're familiar
Speaker:with like the Nielsen Norman Group
Speaker:who does a lot of kind of UX.
Speaker:They have a lot of UX documentation
Speaker:and kind of best practices and things like that,
Speaker:all driven by user research.
Speaker:I would love to, you know, maybe somehow get more of that,
Speaker:but focused on accessibility.
Speaker:'Cause I feel like a lot of times, you know,
Speaker:when I talk to people about accessibility,
Speaker:digital accessibility, there's always WCAG,
Speaker:which of course is the bare minimum that we can do, right?
Speaker:But we need to go beyond that.
Speaker:And I feel like the only way we're gonna be able
Speaker:to go beyond that is to get some solid,
Speaker:to get user experiences and maybe some research as well.
Speaker:So I don't know what that looks like,
Speaker:but that's something that I've been thinking
Speaker:about a lot lately, is just,
Speaker:it would be really cool to get some more of that going, so.
Speaker:- Yeah, no, I completely agree with that.
Speaker:And sometimes it can be difficult,
Speaker:you know, nowadays where maybe people aren't able
Speaker:to share as much as they'd like,
Speaker:because of, you know, security concerns
Speaker:within their organizations.
Speaker:Of course that limits our knowledge base.
Speaker:But we do have things like the IAAP,
Speaker:which has pretty good knowledge base.
Speaker:And just to call that out, we talked a bit before,
Speaker:you have the two certifications from there as well.
Speaker:- Yeah, totally.
Speaker:- And then you have the CPAC and the WAS, right?
Speaker:- Yeah.
Speaker:- Well, so, other than that, are there any things
Speaker:that kind you're really looking forward to
Speaker:in the immediate future that you want to jump into?
Speaker:Or is just keeping up with all the many things
Speaker:that are happening every day?
Speaker:- Yeah, you know, just keeping up with everything.
Speaker:I'm continuing to just grow my relationships at work,
Speaker:but also, like throughout the accessibility community,
Speaker:which is, I'm excited to do this, as well to do that.
Speaker:So yeah, I mean, that's really
Speaker:what I'm just trying to focus on right now.
Speaker:- Great, well, I wanna thank you for taking the time
Speaker:to chat with me about this.
Speaker:And possibly we'll connect up in the real world sometime
Speaker:at a conference or something like that.
