Everyone Who Does Accessibility Ends up at Some Point Teaching It

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(bright melodic music)

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- Hello, this is Digital Accessibility,

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The People Behind the Progress.

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I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series.

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And as an accessibility professional myself,

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I find it very interesting as to how others

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have found their way into this profession.

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So let's meet one of those people right now

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and hear about their journey.

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(upbeat music)

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- All right, well, I'm Joe Welinske back

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with another episode where I have the great time

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and honor of meeting with an accessibility practitioner.

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And today, I am visiting with Sarah Horton.

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Hello, Sarah, how are you today?

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- Hi, Joe, thanks.

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I'm doing great.

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Happy to be here.

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- Well, I'm in my home office on Vashon Island,

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which is near Blink Seattle headquarters.

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Where are you talking to me from?

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- Well, I am in a small village in Scotland.

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It's called Freuchie.

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And it's later in the day here than it is for you

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and a little bit clear in the sky, a few clouds.

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- Well, that sounds like a lovely adventure.

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What brought you to that part of the world?

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- Well, my husband's from here.

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And so we, prior to COVID, lived in the U.S. and here,

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and we happened to be here in March of 2020.

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And the rest is history.

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- Well, yeah, I'm familiar with your background,

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but for people that may not be,

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maybe talk a little bit about the types of things

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that you're working on now

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and then after that we can kind of go back

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and look at some of the other things

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that you've been involved in.

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- That sounds like a good plan.

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So I'm involved in a lot of things,

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but the main thing that I'm involved in now,

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I'm a research fellow at the University of Southampton

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in England, the South of England.

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Actually, I haven't been there yet because of COVID,

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so I'm sort of the northern office, the Scottish office.

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I'm working on a study

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called Teaching Accessibility in the Digital Skill Set.

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And so I work with Sarah Lewthwaite and Andy Coverdale,

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we're just a small team in the Education School there.

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And so this study is about learning how accessibility

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is taught and learned.

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And so we've been talking to people

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who are teaching accessibility

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really from all over the world

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and different sectors like academia and businesses

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and the workplace.

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And you know, we're learning

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that teaching accessibility is really complicated.

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So at this point we're just starting

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to write up the findings

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and I think it's gonna be really helpful

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what we're learning from people.

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And I guess a big takeaway from that

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is that everybody needs digital accessibility skills

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and everyone who does accessibility ends up,

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at some point, teaching it.

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And so learning more about how to teach it effectively

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has been really important and interesting.

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- Well, I did teach accessibility

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at the University of Washington.

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- [Sarah] Oh, neat.

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- They had a course on the campus in Tacoma.

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But one of the themes of this podcast

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is that accessibility hasn't traditionally,

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until now, been a, you know, a part of foundational skills

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that people would find at the university level.

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And that's starting to change, which is great.

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And so, you know, this feeds right into that theme

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and, you know, hopefully we'll see more

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and more programs develop for accessibility

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in the education system.

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- Absolutely, yeah.

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It's really key to moving forward and making progress.

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- Well, you know, going right into that theme,

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a lot of people have come into accessibility

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from a lot of different directions.

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And so maybe take us back into your work life,

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live life, and tell me how you first were exposed

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to accessibility and started to think about that

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as a place that you could have as a profession.

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- That's great.

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Yeah, it was fun preparing for talking to you today.

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I did sort of walk back through memory lane

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and I appreciate the opportunity to share that with you.

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I think I'll have to start,

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like back when I started working in tech,

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which was back before there was a web.

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And I was at the Yale Center

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for Advanced Instructional Media working on CD ROMs

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and that controlled laser discs.

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And I was very, very cutting edge at the time,

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but I had gone to school to be a classical musician

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and that doesn't put food on your table,

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so at least not for most of us who try.

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So from that point on, I worked at universities

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and I worked in instructional technology

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and then, you know, the web came along.

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And I took the skills that I had learned

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from the CD ROM SuperCard HyperCard world

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and was able to sort of translate that

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into working on the web.

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And I spent quite a few years working

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in academic computing at Dartmouth

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and then I moved into being the web director there.

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And, you know, sort of along the way,

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I had some really great opportunities.

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And one of them was to start working

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with my previous colleague and co-author,

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Pat Lynch, on"Web Style Guide",

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which is a book that's been around

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since the web was born, essentially.

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Pat wrote the first version of that

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shortly after the web became

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and I worked with him from the second edition

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on that book.

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And we've done four editions of that, which is very cool.

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The last one was in 2016.

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But you know how that relates to accessibility

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at a certain point.

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So I was doing a lot of design

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and I was sort of a thought leader, you know,

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an accidental thought leader.

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And at a certain point, sort of,

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I think it was the early 2000s,

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I started working in accessibility.

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And for that story I get to mention of a wonderful person

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from the accessibility community, Joe O'Connor.

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And I might cry because we miss

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and love him very much.

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So AccessibleJoe invited me to present

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at a conference in Monterey,

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the New Media Centers conference,

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and he asked me to talk about accessibility.

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And I said yes, but I knew absolutely nothing about it.

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I think that was probably the first thought

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I really learned about it.

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So I had to learn really fast

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and I really liked what I learned.

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And then later that year, I went to another workshop.

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That time, it was at Amherst College in Massachusetts.

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And there was a presenter, his name is Gerald Neufeld,

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and he was there sharing his experiences

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as a blind person using technology

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and going to school and going to law,

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Harvard Law School and all

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and sort of contrasting his pre-digital experiences

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with his current digital experiences.

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And, you know, he was just such a great presenter

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and put accessibility into a context

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that was very meaningful and helped me see

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that how enabling technology can be

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when it's designed right.

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So it was kind of between Joe and Gerald

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that I got really hooked on accessibility.

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- Well, I mean, one of the things that, you know,

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that I know about your background

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is you've been a prolific author and written a lot

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in the accessibility area.

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So you know, what was that all like?

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Because you've written quite a lot just, you know,

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in order to be able to write something

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that's useful to others,

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you have to have internalized that

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and practiced it and worked with it.

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You know, one of your books was with Whitney Quesenbery,

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who is the first person I interviewed for this series

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about 40 episodes ago.

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So I mean, how did that all come about

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and what was that like to be able to not only learn

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about accessibility,

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but then to feel comfortable helping others

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to learn about it and to write about it?

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- Yeah, it's a great question.

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I think, you know, I had been writing about web design,

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through "Web Style Guide".

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And a lot of what I was writing

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was absolutely orthogonal to accessibility.

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And, you know, here's my true confessions.

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You know, I wrote about space or GIFs

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and layout tables and taught people

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how to do terrible things with HTML and CSS.

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And those earlier editions of "Web Style Guide"

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were all about how to hack the web

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into something that was more like an interactive experience

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that you might get through a CD ROM-type thing.

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That the possibilities of the early web

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were very limited from a design perspective.

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And then I started learning about accessibility

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and it helped me really understand,

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okay, this is what this technology is all about.

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This is, you know, about adaptability.

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Not trying to nail everything into place,

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but trying to build something that will adapt gracefully.

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And so as a designer who was, I did design code,

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you know, I did sort of soup to nuts.

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Everyone back then did soup to nuts, you know.

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I changed how I designed and built websites

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and I was working at Dartmouth at this time.

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I wasn't, you know, explicitly asked

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to create accessible home sites

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and, you know, admissions sites

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but that's what I started doing.

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And I learned a great deal from so many people

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in the community and really changed my view of design

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from, you know, I was never that comfortable

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about making pretty things.

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It felt kind of superficial to me,

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but then to realize, well,

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if I use my design skills and my coding skills

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to make something that's useful and usable,

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that is really interesting.

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And that's kind of where I got very hooked.

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And in doing so, I had opportunities

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to give more presentations and write more

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and write books and things like that.

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So I mean, I just had a lot of opportunities

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and that early exposure, I think,

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shifted my thinking so much in a direction

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that was so much more meaningful to me

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and helped me really focus as a designer

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on the things that matter.

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- Well, I think then you mentioned

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that that brought you into the kind of early mid-2000s

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for your work doing the web development work.

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So what came after that?

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What was the next stage that you entered into?

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- Well, yeah, so there was another, like,

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humongous turning point,

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which was when in 2013, Mike Paciello,

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who's another wonderful member of our community,

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offered me a position

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with what was then the Paciello Group.

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And at that point I left higher ed.

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I was at Harvard at the time

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and I started working

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as a digital accessibility consultant in 2013.

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And, you know, TPG,

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I had the most amazing mentors there.

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And I wish I could just name every single one of them.

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But you know, working with people like Mike

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and Steve Faulkner and Gez Lemon and Patrick Lauke

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and Léonie Watson, you know,

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there was just so many people,

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I'd love to name all of them, but I can't.

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I've left out so many people,

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there was a TPG family, you know,

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and I'm doing raised air quotes,

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but it really felt like a family at the time.

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And then there was this larger accessibility community

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that we would encounter at conferences or mailing lists

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and podcasts like yours and things like that.

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During the time working with TPG

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and then later with TPGi, that's really how I learned

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how to do accessibility.

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You know, I did audits of websites, apps.

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I did audit of a time clock once.

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So it was fascinating.

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Design reviews, usability studies,

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that was like my absolute favorite.

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And I learned so much from those.

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And I did more and more strategic consulting

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as time went on with TPGi.

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So with TPG, at least in the beginning,

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you were really thrown in the deep end.

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And you had to do everything.

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You had to know how to do everything.

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And you know, technical details,

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but then like strategic thinking

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about organizational readiness and things like that.

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And so I really, like, I really built up my chops

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while I was working at TPG

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and I'm so grateful for my colleagues

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and clients who helped me learn and grow from there.

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- Well, it's very interesting to hear you talking

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about your work at TPG.

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I think I'm gonna have Mike Paciello

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on this podcast - oh, great!

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- in coming episodes.

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So it'd be fun to get his experiences,

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but if, you know, for you as being part of that,

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first of all that TPG was maybe one

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of the first organizations that really embraced

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the idea of accessibility as its own consulting activity

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and specializing in that.

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And that certainly seems like it would've been, you know,

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a lot different environment

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from your work at the universities and things like that.

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So kind of, you know, what was it like to,

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as you mentioned, being thrown into the deep end there

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and then, you know, developing in that kind of environment?

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- It was a radical shift for me, absolutely.

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And it was chaotic

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and exciting.

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And, you know, I really just didn't look back.

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I think it was a very good move for me to do that

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and to be exposed to so many different dimensions.

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You know, I worked with very large technology companies.

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I worked for small local, you know, governments.

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I just had this breadth of experience

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that I wasn't experiencing

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within the very protected higher education community.

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And the particular schools that I worked at

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were all elite, you know, universities.

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So it was a pretty radical change.

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And as I said,

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it took me a while to take the leap

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because it is kind of a safe environment

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working in academia, but I'm really glad that I did it.

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And my life has changed so much as a result of it,

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everything changed.

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- And then another transition that brought you

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to what you're doing today with your, again,

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to your university work?

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- Yeah, yeah.

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I know, I keep sort of reinventing myself

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because now I'm back in academia, but as a researcher.

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And prior to this, I was sort of supporting the academic

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and research mission of these institutions.

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And now I'm doing the research,

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but it's accessibility research.

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And so that experience that I had working so many years

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with so many different organizations

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and seeing teaching accessibility

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in so many different contexts and doing it myself

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and being taught and mentored by my peers and colleagues,

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I am bringing all of that experience to this project.

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And so while I sort of, I kind of,

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I get away with being a researcher, again, air quotes,

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because I don't have the research background,

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I don't have a PhD or the qualifications

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that you might expect from an academic researcher.

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I bring a perspective

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to my colleagues who are

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and bring a perspective to the job

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that I think has been, that we all have felt,

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has been very beneficial to the work we're doing.

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- Well, it would be good to hear a little bit,

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maybe if you have some insights about things for the future.

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I know I started with accessibility in 1998,

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so like 24 years ago.

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But it wasn't, you know, my full-time work

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for a long time.

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But when I think back to, you know,

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when I was just starting with it, it really excited me.

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And looking ahead, I was thinking,

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I kind of thought maybe we would've been farther along

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with accessibility within the world than we are.

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And then now looking back,

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I'm also amazed by a lot of the technological developments

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that have improved the lives of, you know, so many people.

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So there's always that, you know,

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did we go far enough?

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What's still to come?

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Do you have any thoughts about that?

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Any things where you're hopeful, you know,

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for the future or areas that you, particularly,

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are looking forward to working on?

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- Yeah.

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You know, I am pretty hopeful and at the same time,

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discouraged as well.

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I think that working in the education area

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has given me hope because I am absolutely positive

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that accessibility needs to be a core competency

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for anyone who touches anything digital.

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And that's everyone.

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At least those who are fortunate enough

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to be on the near side of the digital divide.

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And so, having this focus on accessibility education

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or digital accessibility education

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and seeing progress in areas like program accreditation

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and, you know, standard programs for computer science

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and then all of the things,

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like these peer learning opportunities

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like you and I are engaged in right now.

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This is where to invest, I think, right now.

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And that there's an appetite for it.

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There's the Teach Access work that's going on

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in the U.S. that I don't know

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if you've talked to anyone from there,

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but I'd highly recommend following up with teachaccess.org.

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There's a lot of attention being paid now to education

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and raising awareness and building competency.

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And the other area that I feel hopeful about

Speaker: 00:23:08

is the other area that I've been doing a lot of work in

Speaker: 00:23:12

with standards because, and they're intricately tied,

Speaker: 00:23:18

because we need to be able to teach the standards

Speaker: 00:23:22

or requirements one might, I like to think of them,

Speaker: 00:23:26

as requirements, design requirements,

Speaker: 00:23:29

technical requirements,

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as a way of specifying how to build accessible technology.

Speaker: 00:23:36

Making those teachable so that people can learn them

Speaker: 00:23:41

and adopt those requirements and practices.

Speaker: 00:23:46

And so I'm working on the WCAG 3,

Speaker: 00:23:51

the new next generation accessibility guidelines work,

Speaker: 00:23:55

but I think the guidelines that we have

Speaker: 00:23:56

are pretty darn good.

Speaker: 00:23:59

They're just hard to teach and hard to learn.

Speaker: 00:24:01

And so I like that I'm bringing the education

Speaker: 00:24:07

and the standards together.

Speaker: 00:24:08

And that makes me hopeful

Speaker: 00:24:10

as sort of a foundational aspect of moving forward.

Speaker: 00:24:16

- Well, thanks for mentioning the Teach Access.

Speaker: 00:24:20

I wanna look into that.

Speaker: 00:24:21

I do follow the work that the working group's doing

Speaker: 00:24:25

for Web 3.0 and it's always a lot of hard work

Speaker: 00:24:29

from lot of hard working volunteers to make that happen.

Speaker: 00:24:33

But Sarah, it's been a pleasure

Speaker: 00:24:36

to have this conversation with you.

Speaker: 00:24:39

I appreciate you taking the time to do it

Speaker: 00:24:41

and, you know, hopefully, we can meet in person

Speaker: 00:24:44

at a conference sometime.

Speaker: 00:24:46

- I would love that, thank you so much.

Speaker: 00:24:49

And I wanted to just thank you for hosting

Speaker: 00:24:51

these video casts and having done so many of them.

Speaker: 00:24:55

And I'm really excited to hear Mike's.

Speaker: 00:25:00

He's gonna upstage me, totally.

Speaker: 00:25:02

I know that.

Speaker: 00:25:04

But it's been really great fun talking to you.

Speaker: 00:25:06

- All right, well thank you very much.

Speaker: 00:25:09

Bye, Sarah. - Thanks, bye-bye.